Episodes
Tuesday Mar 24, 2020
Episode 31 - An Overabundance of Caution - Coping with Personal Setbacks
Tuesday Mar 24, 2020
Tuesday Mar 24, 2020
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
This week’s episode is little bit different. Apart from the state of the world, Rekka has some personal news that she’d like to update everyone on. This, of course, leads to our topic for the week which is personal setbacks. When there is major event or change in your life, how do you cop and how do you keep writing? When is it time to take a step back and consider stopping? No one can answer those questions for you, but on this episode we talk about our own personal experience and offer some advice. We are all living in uncertain and while it is often frightening and overwhelming, we can all be there for each other with help and support as we adjust to our new normals.
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your favorite way you are passing the time while social distancing and sheltering in place – stay safe everyone!
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Kaelyn (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.
New Speaker (00:08):
And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn (00:12):
And uh, this is going to be a very short intro because of the beginning of the show is kind of the intro. Um, the theme for today is, I'm sure you can tell from the title of the episode is we're talking about personal setbacks and um, Rekka has been experiencing some of those. So rather than spend a lot of time talking about the episode right now, we're just going to jump right into it and uh, give Rekka a chance to kind of give everyone an update on some things that have been going on in her life.
New Speaker (00:37):
So slight pause for music.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
[inaudible]
Kaelyn (00:52):
Okay. And we're back. Not that we ever went too far to begin with -
New Speaker (00:58):
Except this time you didn't even bother coming over to my house to record.
Kaelyn (01:02):
It's true. You may notice that, uh, this episode sounds a little different in two ways. One is that we are recording over the interwebs.
New Speaker (01:11):
Due to an overabundance of caution.
Kaelyn (01:14):
An over abundance of caution. There's two reasons for this. One obviously is coronavirus Hey, yeah, everyone is self isolating. Um, I as I'm sure those who have listened before know I live in New York city. Um, things here are mostly fine, however they are kind of recommending that we all may have been exposed and not be aware of it. So to kind of keep your interaction with other people to a minimum.
New Speaker (01:41):
Yeah. Plus trains are kind of filthy to begin with and Kaelyn getting on a train concerned me for Kaelyn's sake, but also what might come along with her.
Kaelyn (01:50):
And that was a particular concern for Rekka.
Rekka (01:54):
I am now immuno-compromised.
Kaelyn (01:56):
Rekka is officially immuno-compromised. at this point. Um, so for those of you who, you know, follow Rekka on Twitter or maybe even follow her on Facebook if you're involved in her writing groups, um, Rekka has been posting us some information with some health updates, but I'm not, not too much.
New Speaker (02:14):
I haven't give the whole story in public yet.
Kaelyn (02:16):
Exactly. So, um, you may notice Rekka also sounds a little bit different.
New Speaker (02:20):
Slightly a little bit of cotton ball in the mouth kinda -
Kaelyn (02:23):
I think you sound great honestly. But, um, so without too much more beating around the bush, let's kind of get into Rekka what's been going on with you? So, uh, this all started back in may.
New Speaker (02:36):
No, no. May was the nebula's had already been going on since March of 2019. So this is a year, this is the one year anniversary of me going, Hmm, something's wrong. Um, I, I was working on salvage at the time, actually, no, I was working on cast off and I decided that um, Sophie, a character in the books had a tattoo her chest and it was trying to decide what that tattoo might be. And a friend of mine suggested, I look at the music artist LP because she has a very large ship tattooed on her chest and, and so of course then I check out the music, love the music, sing along with the music in my home studio, which is very sound isolated. And I knew no one could hear me at the top of my lungs for a week and a half. And then I lost my voice. This all seems very normal, no reason for concern other than like maybe don't do that next time. Um, but in trying to rest and relax in my voice, I started to realize this is not happening at the right pace.
Rekka (03:41):
This is taking a really long time. Yes. I'm also recording podcasts. Yes, I'm going to conferences and um, and we both came back from the nebulous pretty sick. Right. So, I mean at that point I didn't think that anything was really wrong, but by the time I was ready to go to, uh, my day job's conference in two weeks after that, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna make an appointment for when I get home just to get this looked at in case. And, um, so I ha I had that appointment after the next conference, which of course I also came back from very hoarse. So that primary care physician said, well, have you ever tried not talking a listener? I fired that primary care physician, but she did recommend that I or she did refer me to an ENT. So I went to see my ENT.
Rekka (04:30):
ENT says, um, so describe your symptoms to me. I'm like, well my throat is really sore and I've got this bump under my jaw and she barely touches the bump. She scopes my throat. She says, well you might have done some vocal cord damage, but it seems to be healing. Here's a list of things to avoid for acid reflux. You're done.
Kaelyn (04:49):
Which by the way, if some of you may already know, Rekka is keto. So then on top of this she was limited to basically soup.
New Speaker (04:57):
That was not the case -
Kaelyn (05:01):
That's what it seemed like.
New Speaker (05:01):
However at that point. I did cut out caffeine because caffeine was on the list. So I'm like, all right, well that makes sense for acid reflux. If I am trying to heal my throat, it would probably do me, you know, some good to avoid these things. So I avoided them for a very long time and it did seem to improve. Um, so I thought that was the end of it. Cause the ENT certainly thought that was the end of it. Like they didn't say, you know, call us in a month and let us know how you're doing. And they didn't follow up that, you know, that was it. They scoped my throat. They said don't eat these things. Nothing wrong with you other than that you're young and healthy. So that's already July. Cause it took me that long to realize like, Hmm, it's not just my overuse of my throat. That is a problem. You know, but it was resting. They, the acid reflux stuff seem to be helping. It would still wear out pretty fast. But I'm not even sure that that's actually related. I just think that's the small health problem that got me thinking closer about the overall health problem as tends to happen.
Kaelyn (05:57):
It turns out, however, that this was not acid reflux. There was actually a pretty significant health.
New Speaker (06:02):
I mean there might've been acid reflux, but it was unrelated to the, the underlying health problem. So I, um, I vacationed in October and while I was away, I scratched what was at that point, a two week old tattoo. And over the next week that we were still on vacation, that tattoo got kinda red and inflamed and hot to the touch and, and from to the touch. So that tends to indicate an infection. So when we got home, I went to my primary care physician again, this was the new one. And she said, while you're here, any other complaints? And I'm like, well my throat's been feeling better but this bump under my jaw is still there. And so she immediately zeroed in on him, bless her. And um, she was like, okay, well I will say if she was up front, she's like, there is such a thing as a salivary gland tumor, but it's very rare. So let's start with salivary stones. Cause apparently that's also a thing I'd never heard of that.
Kaelyn (07:05):
Like I'm learning all of these things that can happen in your neck region now.
New Speaker (07:09):
No kidding. But like also the technician at that location had salivary stones. So it's not that uncommon. It's really bizarre.
Kaelyn (07:17):
So watch out for salivary stones, apparently just drink lots of liquid.
New Speaker (07:22):
I think that that helped the instruction she gave me for the salivary stones, um, was to suck on sour candies, which as we've mentioned, I'm keto. So I was just sucking on lemon wedges and then, um, to use hot compresses. So after like I'd say two weeks or so of really being diligent about sucking on lemon wedges at least twice a day and doing the hot compresses, my tongue went numb, which is not what was supposed to happen. And, um, so I went back to her and she said, I am sending you back to the ENT because, um, now we are not, we are not worried about salivary stone so much anymore, but they will be able to order your imaging and, uh, find out what it really is.
Rekka (08:10):
So this is middle of November and this is the point at which we start to have holidays for irregularly. So I wonder how much faster this would have gone if we weren't constantly timing around holidays. So the CT scan came back that it was not a salivary stone. Uh, the two possibilities now are infection and some kind of neoplasm, which is the, uh, term that they like to use instead of tumor. And, uh, so the next thing was thankfully the ENT just called me and said, now we're putting in orders for an ultrasound with fine needle aspiration. So they sent me in for an ultrasound with a needle biopsy and that came back and conclusive the needle biopsy was, the needle was so fine. They basically didn't get big enough samples to see anything. So we killed two more weeks because by the time I got in for that, a week from the needle biopsy was Christmas.
Rekka (09:03):
So he got the results and he said, ah, they're inconclusive. It's not an infection though. It's some kind of neoplasm that may or may not be a, you know, a carcinoma. So then they, um, faxed over all my information to an ENT and the ENT called me back just after new years. So now we are past all the holidays and things start happening. And so I saw the ENT and he was the first person I, I will say he was amazing, the first person to actually like grab on to my throat and really feel around everyone else was touching it, like -
Kaelyn (09:37):
Gently poking.
New Speaker (09:38):
Like they were afraid I was going to break. I'm like, how can you feel anything? Yeah. And he really did. My husband was there and he was super impressed with how he just like went in there and he was feeling my lymph nodes as well. So, um, we felt really good after seeing him and he said exactly what I wanted to hear at that point. I mean, I was sick of this and he said, uh, we won't know what it is until we get a bigger biopsy sample and if we're getting a bigger biopsy sample, we're taking the whole thing out. He's basically, he said then the next step for diagnosis is also the treatment. Then it was waiting to have their scheduling department call me. And so finally the waiting was over at the end of January. Um, the last time we recorded was like two days after I saw him for the first time. So we didn't know when the surgery was going to be at that point, but he did make it sound like it was going to be pretty fast and it was um, basically they called me on a Friday and it was, and they, um, had me in on Tuesday for the surgery.
Rekka (10:38):
And um, so plan, plan a was just to take out the um, the tumor while I was still under, they did identify cancer cells. So that meant, you know, the full surgical possibility it was going to be enacted, which was to remove 40 of 50 lymph nodes, um, from my neck. So they did that. So the little scar that they were promising me, which actually was sounding really disappointing at the time, is now a very, um, very large scar that I have much pride over.
Kaelyn (11:10):
It's pretty badass.
New Speaker (11:11):
It's very bad ass. I didn't want a eh, kind of scar. But this one, this one says screams cancer survivor.
Kaelyn (11:19):
I think it screams Ninja attack survivor personally.
New Speaker (11:23):
Yeah. It just kind of as some, another author who saw it put it, it looks like someone slipped my throat and I got up and killed them.
Kaelyn (11:31):
It's exactly what it looks like.
Rekka (11:35):
Um, yeah, so it's pretty bad ass. Uh, I thought at the beginning of this I thought that um, based on where it was bothering me, I thought the scar would run vertically over the side of my jaw and I was getting kind of excited about this space, pirate kind of a scar and um, and then when I realized that they were going to run, it was going to be horizontal and they were going to run it parallel to my job. It was like, no, I don't want it now. We don't want the surgery. I wanted that scar. It turns out if they put the scar where I wanted it, I probably would have lost all muscle control and that side of my face. So maybe for the best, maybe we let the doctors and surgeons decide where the scar goes.
Kaelyn (12:06):
Fine. What like they know what they're doing or something? All of this is to come back to say you came out of the first surgery and were given the diagnosis?
Rekka (12:15):
Yeah, yeah. Well, worse. Um, my husband was given the diagnosis and he had to give me the diagnosis, which just about broke his heart. So the diagnosis that my husband had to deliver to me was that yes, I had cancer. Um, I kind of knew it because when I was waking up, they did mention you had a lot of, or you did a big job. I don't remember the exact words, but basically I knew that it wasn't the small incision. I knew that they'd gone for everything and knowing that they'd gone for everything meant I knew what they found. I don't know how I may use this much logic coming out from under general anesthesia, but I understood within moments of me becoming conscious again that, um, my neck had been got wide open and that meant that they found cancer cells. So my husband having to tell me this, he didn't actually, like, I wasn't hearing it from him cause I had already figured it out, but he was, he was very upset and he said, um, you know, it's bad, but, um, the surgeon thinks we're, you know, we're not going to have any trouble beating this.
Rekka (13:20):
You know, they've got a plan. The diagnosis that came up with the final biopsy of the surgery was, was that it was a stage one, which meant early in the cancer's life, however high grade, which meant it was very aggressive, uh, adenoid which means it was in salivary or mucus glands, cystic meaning a tumor, carcinoma meaning cancer. So, um, stage one, high grade adenoid cystic carcinoma of my left submandibular salivary gland. So this is what I'm dealing with, the bump in my throat. Oh, the bump on the outside of my neck, which I only found because my throat got sore. Um, turns out was not a swollen lymph node that was irritated by my other stresses and illnesses, but it was a tumor that had probably been there for awhile. Um, but it took until, you know, the biopsy was complete before I had my final diagnosis, which I'd been trying to get all last year.
Rekka (14:16):
So it was, um, I will say it, it hasn't been a stressful journey to even just get to this point and there was a lot of relief and just having a diagnosis and a plan.
Kaelyn (14:26):
That's a very, that's a very common thing with um, people who have been dealing with, uh, chronic and ongoing symptoms that no one can quite tell them what's wrong.
New Speaker (14:37):
No one believes anything is really going to be that problematic cause I'm young and healthy. Well guess what? Cancer is not really healthy, so stop using that.
Kaelyn (14:45):
Well, think about what your life and your mental state must be like to be relieved to hear that you have cancer.
New Speaker (14:51):
Like how frustrating is this process that you are like, good, good. Now we can do something about it -
Kaelyn (14:55):
Oh thank God, it's cancer.
New Speaker (14:56):
Okay. Well, okay, I will say I never had that phrase pop into my mind.
Kaelyn (15:01):
Um, but yeah. Well, so you know, speaking of, uh, next steps and plans and dealing with things. Um, we are recording a bunch of these right now because Rekka has a step two of, of this treatment coming up.
Rekka (15:17):
The thing they warned me about when I came out from the first surgery was that we might need to do surgery again. Um, and "might" was really more of a, yeah, we're going to do that.
Kaelyn (15:27):
We're going to be doing this. Yeah.
Rekka (15:29):
Basically the nerve that they took, um, runs up and merges with another nerve at a certain point and they found a cancer cell above the point where they branch out. So they are going down the other branch. Now that branch goes through my jaw, they probably would have taken it if it didn't, but because I had only signed off on a couple of things, uh, pre-surgery, they could not, uh, keep going and get it all done in one day. So, um, they waited for the final biopsy, they waited for a pet scan. And, um, at that point they said, we really recommend that you have this, um, left sagittal, uh, mandibular split osteotomy. I think those are the words, what it means, like actually verify what it means is that, um, they're going to do a controlled fracture of my jaw so that, um, they can get in and get the nerve out that's inside left mandible sagittal split osteotomy.
Rekka (16:34):
I think that's what I said that is, so basically if they have to take more than four centimeters of the nerve that's in there and this is a pretty significant portion of my jaw, um, I would say at least 10 centimeters if not, you know, 12. Um, if they take less than four centimeters, that means that they can graft it and I might retain feeling in my face on that side. Cause where it comes out of the jaw is just below the corner of my mouth on the left side. And that's all the feeling on the left side of my mouth. And you know, the obviously the feeling in my jaw on that side. So there's a chance that, um, I guess what they'll do is section the, uh, the nerve and see if they see any cancer cells. And if they don't, then they'll stop and graft it.
Kaelyn (17:21):
So, uh, listeners, by the time you hear this episode -
New Speaker (17:24):
It will already be done.
Kaelyn (17:24):
Rekka will have already undergone the surgery. She will be on the road to recovery that said Rekka is going to have her jaw wired shut which you may suspect is counterproductive to recording podcasts. Listenter you would be correct.
New Speaker (17:40):
I mean, they have told me that I could talk through my teeth, but it's really not great radio.
Kaelyn (17:43):
You're going to be an amazing ventriloquist by the time all this was done. So yeah. Um, we're recording a bunch of episodes now. Um, and hopefully, you know, in a month, a couple of months Rekka will, uh, be well on the mend by then and um,
Rekka (18:03):
Hopefully the quarantines will be lifted, the plague will be over.
Kaelyn (18:06):
That's a whole other, that's a whole other issue.
New Speaker (18:08):
So also because of this upcoming surgery we told Kaelyn, even though we invited you over for corn, beef and cabbage. Um, nevermind, sorry, we love you, but please stay there.
Kaelyn (18:18):
Yup. Which I mean, was the smart responsible adult thing to do.
New Speaker (18:22):
Certainly.
Kaelyn (18:23):
Um, so yes, Rekka is now officially amongst the, uh, the population of immuno-compromised people that need to be taking this very seriously. Um, yeah.
Rekka (18:34):
Not to mention that after the surgery, six weeks later I'm going to start radiation.
Kaelyn (18:37):
Yeah. So, um, we are, uh, we are isolating. We are trying to minimize the spread and risk of contagion here.
New Speaker (18:47):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (18:47):
But, um, so
Rekka (18:49):
While also keeping the wonderful content that you expect from this podcast going.
Kaelyn (18:53):
Yes.
Rekka (18:54):
So along those lines, speaking of content, uh, as we mentioned at the, in the brief intro, uh, we're talking about personal setbacks today and, and Kaelyn suggested this and she was talking professional.
Kaelyn (19:08):
I was talking professional setbacks and we are going to talk about those eventually. Um, but we realized that Rekka really hadn't had a chance to explain to, you know, her loyal and loving fans.
Rekka (19:22):
Not that I owe you an explanation of my health situation and we recognize that you might be protesting is like she doesn't know what's that and that's fine. And I love you for thinking that and um, but the uh, you know, this is going to impact the show. It's going to impact my writing. It's going to impact a lot of stuff. Yeah. So, um, I wanted to talk about it and um, Kaelynknew that you would be concerned for me and wish me well and wanted to give me a chance to tell you what was going on.
Kaelyn (19:49):
So, um, yeah, that's it. Uh, where, uh, going to have limited access to Rekka's, voice in coming weeks and months. Yeah. So,
Rekka (19:56):
so we have some contingency plans. We're going to do what we can to not make the podcast feel like it's getting all that different. But um, you know, it may have to at certain points
Kaelyn (20:07):
And we'll keep you posted and updated and you know, like I said, Rekka is going to learn to throw her voice really well. So, you know, look forward to some upcoming new characters.
Rekka (20:17):
I might even fill in Kaelyn's role sometimes if we can't get together to record that she's going to do both of us.
Kaelyn (20:25):
So, um, yeah. So Rekka, you're, we're, we're going to shift a little bit to an interview format here, um, where we're going to talk about personal setbacks and how that impacts not just your life but especially your writing. So Rekka, overall, how you feeling right now about all of them?
Rekka (20:42):
Well, fuck, I mean, come on. I, I am very positive about my health. I am 200% fucking stubborn to let anything like this stop me.
Kaelyn (20:53):
When we had first heard about this and I had gone up to, uh, to visit Rekka, uh, her husband, Matt and I were sitting up talking and I looked over at him and said, you know, the universe is going to have to drag Rekka kicking and screaming from it. Right? He said, I know. And it's like, okay, just so we're on the same page here, I know you're doing, you know, you are handling this. I mean I can't, I don't want to say handling it better because there is no better or worse when handling
Rekka (21:22):
I have my moments like that.
Kaelyn (21:26):
You are addressing this in what to me is an incredibly admirable way. But as you said, I'm sure you've had your moments.
Rekka (21:35):
Yeah. And honestly, you know, thinking about this in terms of the writing, the, the way that I am dealing with this is allowing myself not to be as productive as I expect to be. Um, well that was,
Kaelyn (21:49):
Yeah, that was my next question is so you know, obviously your life and your health is the first most important thing
Rekka (21:55):
And it has to be and if you want to get through it, you have to prioritize things. So yeah.
Kaelyn (22:02):
Secondarily though, um, this is obviously going to be impacting your writing and the way the rate at which you produce. Um, now I think for a lot of people listening to this and a lot of writers out there would say, well to me I find that kind of a relaxing thing if I've just got to sit around anyway, I plan to do a lot of writing and for some people, depending on what the setback might be, maybe you lost your job. Maybe there's um, you know, other health issues in your family that directly don't directly impact you. If we're getting is an outlet that you can use to calm yourself and to, you know, get some me time in there, then that's fantastic. However, and I think Rekka can speak more to this. Manage your expectations.
Rekka (22:46):
Well, not only that, um, yeah, definitely what you're saying is manage your expectations because losing your job may give you lots of free time, but it also gives you extra anxiety and suddenly, you know, you feel like all your free time needs to be going to finding the next job or you're spending your free time, brain processing power, worrying about bills and what's going to happen with your insurance or your loved ones if they depended on you. I mean there are so many reasons why having more free time is not, you know, suddenly and unexpectedly is not a good thing. Um, and you know, worrying about your family. Let me tell you, I can watch my family around me. They are having a harder time with this than I am. They are con they're preoccupied at all times with what's going on with my health. Yeah. And um, so even if it's not you, even if it's something going on where you might, um, think I should be able to write more, cause I've got lots of time to do it in you brain, just need you to sit and process it.
Kaelyn (23:48):
This is, you know, and we've talked about this in other episodes, um, the time that you need to just sit and think about things in your writing now take that and apply it to, you know, for instance -
New Speaker (24:00):
Dealing with a major crisis.
New Speaker (24:02):
In Rekka's case dealing with cancer. Um, I think that, you know, it is good for a lot of people to try to maintain a sense of a normal schedule to not, you know, have your life completely upended, but you have to acknowledge that your life is going to be completely offended and be okay with that and be okay with that.
Rekka (24:26):
Like acceptance is so much of this, um, understanding like I used to get up every morning at 5:00 AM and write for two hours before I started my work day and then I knew whatever else, you know, went on that day. I'd already gotten my writing done. Um, [inaudible] I started when things got kind of like, Ooh, something's wrong here. I stopped waking up that early, I started letting myself sleep in cause I'm like, all right, my immune system needs some help. I stopped drinking. I enjoy a glass of gin every now and then. Um, I haven't had any alcohol since my tongue went on. Basically. I said, my immune system needs everything I can give it, you know, and he's all hands on deck. Um, I got serious about, you know, my physical fitness, which of course now I can't because I have a scar that's still healing. So, um, I got as fit as I could before my first surgery. Um, because your muscles are really key to your immune system and um, you know, I tried to do everything I could to, um, to prioritize my health even before I knew what this was and knew the long haul I was in for.
Kaelyn (25:34):
Again, this is the prioritization is really important. Um, your health is really important. Your mental health is very important. Um, personal setbacks can come in all ways, shapes and forms. I will, um, I will say that, uh, last fall I had a really rough last fall. Um, I had about a month where nothing really major happened, like the, you know, I didn't, for instance, end up diagnosed with cancer. Um, but I had a couple of deaths in the family really close together. Um, I changed jobs, which, you know, I didn't lose my job and that was still just very stressful dealing with all of that. And you know, then I had, um, also some health issues. I think I had mentioned on the podcast one time when I sounded particularly scratchy, I got strep throat in the middle of all of this and all of these things individually, you know, would be something to just deal with that a jury summons.
Kaelyn (26:38):
So real quick, this is, this is a quick, lighthearted, funny story. October 17th was one of the, what is now most comically bad days of my life. Um, my, uh, my uncle had died. I came home from the funeral and I had been coughing a lot. I hadn't been feeling great. So my cousin calls me, I'm on the other side of the family, which is why she was not at the funeral, just to be clear. And, uh, I had spent the previous weekend with her and she says, um, Hey, I just want to give you a heads up. I have strep throat, she's a teacher so she's around children all the time and they're constantly infecting her with stuff. And I think to myself, God damn it, and I had just resigned my job a week before this. I had two weeks left before I started my new one. I was like, I don't have time for this.
Kaelyn (27:26):
So I went straight to the clinic. They did a rapid strep test. So they're like, Oh yeah that's strep throat. But good news, you caught it pretty early. So you know, it's, so I go home and sitting in my mail is eight jury summons but not just a regular jury summons, eight grand jury summons. Um, the difference here for those wondering is a grand jury is the group of people that sits together and listens to prosecutors, give evidence and decides if they have enough to hand out an indictment. It is a minimum of 20 day service and this is not a situation where you can show up in a princess leia outfit and insists that you shouldn't be on a jury because you're a hologram and they'll send you home. They don't care if your name gets pulled out of the thing you're serving on a grand jury, which I want everyone just to keep that in mind if you're ever thinking of committing a crime.
Kaelyn (28:15):
So the day I was supposed to report for this was the first day of my new job, so thankfully I was able to defer it. Um, but to really round out the story, I'm sitting at home, I have like a glass of wine. My one of my friends came over and you know, I was just watching the football game and all of a sudden I hear all these lights and sirens outside. The short version of this story is I go downstairs and there are six firefighters standing outside with axes debating whether or not it's time to break down the door. I want you to think about what I looked like coughing, crying, bleary-eyed in sweatpants. Ma'am, ma'am, have you been inhailing smoke ma'am?
Kaelyn (29:08):
So apparently what happened was there was a, um, when you rent buildings in New York, you have to have a thing that if certain alarms go off, it automatically calls the fire department. And this one shorted out and called the fire department. So anyway, the whole point of this is, is that, um, by the end of October I, I came up for it to record a track. I go to the Halloween party and I was a wreck. Like just the stress of everything going on. Even though nothing that bad and permanently life-changing had been happening. This is all a very long way of saying that you need to figure out what it is that's causing you stress and take that into account when you have these kinds of setbacks. And don't try to just write it off and tell yourself it's not a big deal. People have it worse than me. I should just put my head down and do this. Cause that's what I did. And let me tell you,
Rekka (30:02):
It extended your pain for sure.
Kaelyn (30:04):
It was, it was not a productive way of handling all of this. Yeah.
Rekka (30:08):
And my not knowing what my issue was was really affecting my mental health. I should also mention that I'm in the hospital after my surgery. I got a grand jury summons. I mean they didn't send it to the hospital, but the week of my surgery, um, I had surgery on Tuesday and on Friday arrived a grand jury summoned, um, this is apparently they are waiting like something in your mental health is pinging the government to send you -
Kaelyn (30:38):
to be like, yes, this is somebody who should decide whether or not people go to, have to go to trial.
Rekka (30:43):
And I don't know if I told Kaelyn this yet. I think I did. Um, since then my husband has gotten jury summons, but just regular, just a regular look. The, the local court. But yeah, I mean, are you kidding me? What is going on? The actual outbreak is jury summons.
Kaelyn (31:02):
So yeah. Well speaking of outbreaks then and things that are stressful, um, I, so I deferred, I last week got my grand jury servings again. I'm, I'm supposed to show up on March 23rd and um, I don't know what's going to happen with all of this.
Rekka (31:17):
Right. And that was another thing that was in the hospital, right. As the, you know, we were getting the first understanding of how big this was in China. Um, you know, when they were no longer able to conceal the numbers, um, that was on the news while I was in the hospital.
Kaelyn (31:35):
So, um, along those lines, and this is going to be one of our rare timely episodes because I'm,
Rekka (31:41):
Yeah, this will date us. I mean, here's your time capsule if you're coming from the future.
Kaelyn (31:45):
Yeah. If you're listening in the future, but for those who, you know, keep up to date with us, this is a rare, timely episode of it. So a personal setback that a lot of people are going to be experiencing now is dealing with this coronavirus situation. Even if you don't have it, um, your life and your movements are gonna be restricted. Um,
Rekka (32:02):
You might be working from home, which in theory you have more time cause you don't have to commute. You don't have to bother, you know, putting on clothes or putting on makeup if you don't want to, which you know, it's up to you if you do it. Honestly, you know, I think we should do an episode on working from home optional, but um, you know, now you've got the stress of like, how is my family, um, am I at higher risk? What exposures have I been exposed to? You know, like now you have all this time but you are stressed in the social media stream. Might be a good time to turn that off because you know, you've got all this constant barrage of updates and numbers and um, media coverage for better or worse.
Kaelyn (32:40):
Yeah. And beyond that, um, this is going to start impacting writers in very real ways that everything's getting canceled.
Rekka (32:48):
Yup. Um, conferences.
Kaelyn (32:50):
Conferences, writing groups of, you know, just general events, just general meetups. Um, you know, this is something that, you know, needs to be taken seriously, obviously. And thankfully people are, cause this is, you know, incredibly contagious and large gatherings of people are not great for that. However, this is going to impact your writing and this will be a personal setback for a lot of people.
Rekka (33:16):
Yeah, yeah. Personal on a national and global scale, but it's still, you know, it affects, you personally don't feel guilty for having negative feelings about this. Like, you know, Katelyn was saying, don't feel like other people have it worse than me. I mean, don't go out to tell other people who do have it worse than you that they don't, but you know, be accepting of what you're going through.
Kaelyn (33:38):
Be kind to yourself about this. It's okay to feel down about things and be disappointed.
Rekka (33:43):
It's like grief. If you try to put it off and put it off and put it off, you're still gonna get hit with it. Um, so the stress and anxiety over the situation, it's like acknowledge it and work with it. Not, don't try to wall it off.
Kaelyn (33:56):
Uh, because I'm going to curtail that into kind of our last talking point on this, which is this kind of thing will affect your writing. Um, there are a lot of very famous stories out there about authors writing things when they were in a bad place.
Rekka (34:11):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (34:12):
And how it comes through in your writing.
Rekka (34:15):
So even if you manage to maintain your productivity, it's going to probably change the tone and Tomber of your, of your work.
Kaelyn (34:22):
Yeah, exactly. So if you, you know, and when you're dealing with, you know, in in wreck case for instance, you know, really significant illness, um, you know, keep that in mind as something that is affecting you. Be aware of this because if, I mean, who knows, maybe this, this will, you know, inspire your writing. Maybe this will work for the better. Um, one of the examples I always use is, um, J K Rowling famously saying she almost killed off Ron in one of the books, out of sheer frustration and depression. Um, you know, thankfully if she did it, but, um, these kinds of things can come through and impact your stories and your characters and your writing. Um, if you want them to and you just want to run with it, that's fine. But you know, it never hurts to also just be, be mindful of what your mental health is doing.
Rekka (35:17):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (35:18):
So, um, that's, you know, as we wanted to kind of use this episode as an opportunity to update but then also discuss something that everyone is probably going to deal with something like this at some point in their life.
Rekka (35:38):
Yeah. And we didn't get to it yet, but, um, what I will say is that the person and the, and the energy and the health and the productivity that I had before this all started, I will never have that again. This personal setback is not a year and a half of dealing with cancer. This is after I come out of the cancer and it's gone. I still am missing 40 lymph nodes. I was still have gone through radiation and I will never be the same person again.
New Speaker (36:05):
Your immune system will forever be compromised.
New Speaker (36:07):
My jaw might be weaker, you know, I might have to watch out like no more bar fights for me, you know.
Kaelyn (36:12):
Um, which is a shame because that was one of my favorite activities when coming to visit you.
Rekka (36:17):
But the, um, you know, the life that I have when this is done is not going to look like the life I had when I started, which was my expectation when I wanted to get through this and get back to my life is what I used to say. Um, it was a big revelation for me to realize that my life is going to not be the life that I thought it was going to have. Um, that doesn't have to be negative. If I can accept that whatever my new normal is, is now my new normal and work with it. And I think that's true for everyone now. Like your setback may not be permanent, but if it is, you're going to be okay. .
Kaelyn (36:56):
Yeah, it's, it's a very difficult thing for a lot of people who experience, um, be it, you know, lost trauma or illness to accept that a lot of times you are going to have a new normal. Um, very rarely can you just get through something and jump back into your life the way you did. Because if nothing else, you have mentally come out of this change. Yeah. You are never going to be the same way you were before. And pretending and trying to be that way is probably not healthy.
Rekka (37:30):
Right. That's, that's how we bury our traumas. That's how we, you know, overextend ourselves. If it's a physical, um, capability that is now lower, um, yeah, being okay accepting that the Rekka of, you know, July, 2020 is someone I haven't met yet. Um, but that I, I will be living with is, um, it's, it's going to be the, the real triumph here. You know, beating cancer isn't up to me. I have a team of people who are going to do that. My job is to be good to myself, to allow myself the space I need to heal and to um, accept the person that I am being transformed into because that's all I can do.
Kaelyn (38:16):
Yeah. So, um, well that's to add real quick. Rekka your prognosis is very good.
Rekka (38:21):
Yeah. Yup, yup. They're not too worried about it, but it does mean like for the rest of my life, every three months I'll be getting MRIs and you know, scans of one kind or another because they've got to keep an eye on this. It can pop up again, can pop up in a month, that can pop up in 20 years. So this is, this is my new normal is every three months I've got to take some time out to go get a scan, which means now I am very concerned about what's going on with like national health insurance, which has added an anxiety, you know, so, um
Kaelyn (38:36):
eah, there is, there's absolutely when dealing with this, with anything that is a personal setback, there's a butterfly effect and there's things that are going to come out of this that you won't even think to consider until they're happening non-skiers down the line. But just to, you know, end on a more positive note record. Your prognosis is very good.
Rekka (39:11):
My prognosis is excellent. Um, everyone's very confident that we can take care of this. Um, so assuming everything goes on schedule, like I said, I will have the surgery, um, by the time you're hearing this, it's already happened and I'm out by a few days. Um, six weeks out from that I start what they're expecting will be six weeks of radiation. Um, basically 12 weeks out from the start of radiation is what is going to be my new normal. And then I won't know until then. So that's like end of July.
Kaelyn (39:40):
But in the meantime, you have, all of us here.
Rekka (39:43):
I have amazing support from friends and family and love and support you and, um, you know, we'll of course be thinking about you. And my publisher has been kind enough not to ask me for the draft that they owe them.
Kaelyn (39:57):
Well, because weirdly enough, you've had a little bit of a personal setback. Yes.
Rekka (40:01):
Um, the, the writing has been, as I said, I stopped getting up at 5:00 AM so nevermind the mental fatigue of, of dealing with all of us, but I also have less hours in the day, um, because I'm trying to give myself eight hours of sleep every night minimum. And, um, that has definitely impacted the time when I would normally get up and write. And that means by the time I get up in the morning and get to the computer, it's time to start my work day. Uh, what I didn't mention, you know, I'm not a full time writer. I have a day job and I've been missing a lot of time from work for surgeries and treatments, which means that I'm also way behind at work. Um, I know you said you wanted to end this on a positive note, but that was something I meant to mention before. It's like, it's not just, um, you know, can I keep my spirits up and um, give myself the time to get back to writing.
Rekka (40:52):
It's like I'm, I'm overtaxing myself trying to stay on top of the work because I have another surgery coming up and I'm going to be further behind when I come out of that. So that's a stress too. And so if you don't have, um, you know, total control of your time, then you gotta, you gotta deal with that. And then of course if I did work from home in my writing, not writing would impact my income. You know, the income I rely on. So it's, it's, um, it's not a great situation to be in whether you have a full time job, although I'm very fortunate that I have, um, very understanding employers who are not counting my PTO with regard to this. Um, and I'm being very well taken care of. But having said that, um, our, my, the company I worked for, their largest income earner is a conference, which is, you know, that's the whole thing comes back around to.
Kaelyn (41:51):
Again, it's a whole butterfly effect, everything is, you know, everything's going to be a, we're going to have to wait and see how it goes.
Rekka (41:56):
And it's an election year.
Kaelyn (41:57):
And it's an election here.
Rekka (42:01):
All right, well, I don't know if we really supplied a lot of answers, but it really does boil down to be understanding for yourself and others around you. Of course. Um, make the time to process and don't try to wall off, um, your anxieties, your fears, your medical conditions from your writing. Um, it's okay if your writing looks different during this time, whether it's your writing time, um, whether you no longer can go to the cafe safely. Um, whether you, um, don't get the writing time in that you want or whether your writing itself starts to feel different because you are processing in your words what's going on inside you. And maybe if you feel like that's undermining something that you were already working on, write something new, you know, write a couple of catharsis short stories and um, do a brain dump. Um, I happened to know that McSweeney's is dealing with a lot of, uh, apocalyptic short fiction right now coming through in their submissions. Um, and it's no wonder, uh, we're just going to all be processing this.
Kaelyn (43:14):
And we'll be seeing a lot more of it now.
Rekka (43:17):
Yeah. And the good news is everyone around you kind of understands right now. Um, some of these, yeah. And some of these personal setbacks are going to happen in the future and unrelated to this outbreak and unrelated to, you know, uh, current diagnosis. Um, sometimes it's grief, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's, you know, work-related. So no matter when it happens or in what capacity, you really just do have to take care of yourself, make room for you to feel what you need to feel and process it. Um, and forgive yourself for not being the, you know, mega productivity robot that you think you should be. Um, you're a human. Your health comes first and that includes your mental health and, um, yeah, I mean that, that would be what I would advise and, you know, talk to someone, therapists, um, pastors.
Rekka (44:13):
Um, there are a lot of people who can, um, help you process this and you know, friends even, you know, if you have a good community of supporting friends, uh, you know, right now we're all going through it, but there will be times when you, there is somebody who's in a good place and able to take on an emotional burden and really help you. Um, and when we're all going through it together, then we all help each other.
Kaelyn (44:36):
Aww, that's very nice, Rekka.
Rekka (44:39):
Thank you.
Kaelyn (44:39):
Um, well, um, on that note, yes, that's a good, that's a good note to end.
Rekka (44:45):
Okay. That one there. We'll stop there and I won't provide more horrible information.
Kaelyn (44:51):
Um, well thanks everyone for listening. You know, as we set this up, this episode is one of our few timely ones and um, you know, we always try to do stuff that's a little more like question and answer or research driven, but this one, you know, with not only what's just going on in the world but what's going on with Raca seemed like a good, a good topic to discuss. So hopefully you're leaving this feeling a little better then when you came in.
Rekka (45:15):
But um, as always, thank you for listening and you can engage and find us online@wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. You can find us at Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast and if you are finding this helpful and you are able, um, we have a Patreon that we would love your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. And, um, if that is not financially viable for you right now, of course, you can always support us by leaving a review on iTunes or Apple podcasts and letting other people know that you liked the podcast or what specifically you liked the podcast for. And that will help other people find and subscribe to us. And if you haven't subscribed yet, of course, please come. Subscribe, subscribe. We always forget to say that one. So yes, we will talk to you in two weeks. And, um, thank you all. I know that I can count on your emotional support, um, while I'm going through this. And, um, some of you are already aware and have reached out and it's, it's been really helpful and I really appreciate you all.
Kaelyn (46:24):
Please feel free if you are looking to emotionally support Rekka to tweet her pictures of cats and sharks. We like sharks,
Rekka (46:29):
Sharks especially. Um, yeah, definitely.
Kaelyn (46:35):
So, yeah. Alright, well thanks again everyone and we'll talk to you two weeks.
Tuesday Mar 10, 2020
Tuesday Mar 10, 2020
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
It’s our first return guest! Miri Baker joins us again this week to talk about something we should all have in our lives: boundaries. It’s not a secret that the world is overwhelming and constantly vying for you attention. But even things that you love like social media and writing groups can start to have a negative impact on your life if they’re not kept under control. In this week’s episode, we talk about when doing one more thing becomes doing too much, the impact it can have your mental and emotional health, and what some things that we do to keep ourselves from exhaustion.
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and how much toilet paper you have stashed away for the coming months.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Find Miri at:
Twitter: @MiriBaker
Website: https://miribaker.com
And find the maker of Miri’s amazing shirt at:
https://www.caramcgee.com
Rekka (00:00:00):
So when I say welcome back to, We Make Books. I'm not talking to you listener this time. I'm saying welcome back to we make books to Miri Baker.
Kaelyn (00:00:08):
Joining us again.
Rekka (00:00:09):
Joining us for a second time.
Kaelyn (00:00:11):
Our first return guest.
Rekka (00:00:12):
Triumphant return.
Kaelyn (00:00:13):
Yes.
Rekka (00:00:14):
Um, Miri joins us today to talk about something that is very difficult for me to hear. Let's be real.
Kaelyn (00:00:24):
Something that's difficult for a lot of people here, a lot of people to talk about, a lot of people to implement and that today is boundaries.
Rekka (00:00:30):
Personal boundaries in your professional writing life. You need them. And Miri's got a lot of tips and a lot of -
Kaelyn (00:00:40):
Thoughts.
Rekka (00:00:41):
Auntie concerns and um, yeah, this is really, this is one of those things that isn't going to come up a lot in like professional discussions. But as soon as you start getting a little bit on like the emotional level, I think a lot of our emotional problems and our stresses related to this industry do come a lot from I boundaries we set or fail to set.
Kaelyn (00:01:09):
Yeah. I think a lot of people are going to hear things in this episode that are going to hit home that they didn't realize were things that they needed to think or consider.
Rekka (00:01:19):
We apologize if you feel personally attacked. You aren't being personally attacked.
Kaelyn (00:01:22):
No one is being personally attacked. Um, but Miri was on, um, or previous, it was episode 21 I believe. um talking about community and when we had her back on to talk about, you know, something else, uh, this kind of seems like a good counterpoint to that, which is writing and writing communities. And this is, it occupies sort of a unique space and we talk about this in the episode, but needing to set an establish and maintain boundaries for yourself is a crucial part of being successful in the life and process of being a writer.
Rekka (00:02:01):
And not just successful but also healthy.
Kaelyn (00:02:03):
Yes. Successful and healthy. Exactly. So, um, once again, we had a great time sitting down talking to Miri. Um, she was again allowed to leave. Despite our best efforts.
Rekka (00:02:14):
She did return home. We have confirmation that sh that, you know, like acknowledging that she is home. We made it back in one, did not keep her against her will. Um, but we had a great conversation. So take a listen and we hope you enjoy
Rekka (00:02:44):
And you sound tired.
Kaelyn (00:02:45):
You have me up so early.
Rekka (00:02:49):
You love me.
Kaelyn (00:02:50):
Those blankets wanted me to stay with them, took me away from that.
Rekka (00:02:55):
You'll join them again later.
Kaelyn (00:02:57):
Wripped away.
Miri (00:02:58):
They will be there for you.
Kaelyn (00:02:59):
Hey, that's a new voice.
Rekka (00:03:01):
Well not totally new.
Kaelyn (00:03:03):
No, not totally new. Second returning guest.
Miri (00:03:05):
Phase two of the invasion.
Kaelyn (00:03:07):
First ever returning guest for a second time.
Rekka (00:03:11):
Again.
Kaelyn (00:03:15):
I didn't say it makes it less of an invasion. I just wanted to, you know -
Rekka (00:03:18):
Just to be clear, part of the invasions idea is to make something so normal that you don't realize it's happening and what's more normal than Miri Baker. Welcome back.
Kaelyn (00:03:31):
Welcome back, Miri.
Miri (00:03:32):
Hi. Thanks for having me back.
Rekka (00:03:35):
So this isn't our fault, because you kind of pitched us this topic at the end of our last episode when you appeared back in, I believe that was November.
Kaelyn (00:03:44):
Beginning of November.
Rekka (00:03:45):
Of November, 2019. What is time? And so you sort of pitched this at us and said like, yeah, sure, read us an outline and you were like furiously scribbling it immediately. So it behooves us to pay attention when someone is so passionate about a topic. And what is this topic for which you are so passionate.
Miri (00:04:06):
Today we are going to talk about boundaries.
Rekka (00:04:09):
On this very special episode of we make books.
Miri (00:04:12):
Not without boundaries.
Rekka (00:04:16):
So you are talking about uh, sports fields with the sports ball and the white chalk lines.
Miri (00:04:22):
Yeah. Those, no, it's a, it's more of a rolly painty thing these days.
Rekka (00:04:27):
If only we had that to set our boundaries.
Miri (00:04:30):
Right.
Rekka (00:04:31):
This is the outline of what I'm willing to do for you.
Kaelyn (00:04:33):
Well, you know, there's a thing that, um, the officials have in soccer when they, it's just like, this can have like, like really fast melting temporary spray that when they have to spray off a line for like a free kick or something and everyone should just have those at all times and you just spray it on the ground and you have to worry about it because in about five minutes it's going to dissolve and not be there.
Rekka (00:04:52):
No, no, no, no. We want the boundaries to stick. Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:04:55):
But like if you just need to go boundary, okay. And then you, and then you walk away.
Miri (00:05:02):
You yeet yourself from the line after you kick really hard.
Kaelyn (00:05:05):
After you kick really hard.
Rekka (00:05:06):
I like this. Okay. So working with that now. All right, so you were talking about boundaries. Um, are we talking about, um, emotional boundaries, uh, work boundaries?
Miri (00:05:19):
All of the above. So the idea for this came from, uh, I think when I was on the last time Kaelyn mentioned, Oh, all of these social medias that you're in, all of that, that's a lot of time, you know, that can really take over your life. And I kind of cracked my back. Oh yeah. It leads to some really unhealthy habits and some, some ways of interacting with the world and ways of spending my time that are, you know, yes, kind of, kind of take over my life.
Kaelyn (00:05:46):
And I said, yes, that's what I'm worried about. That's, that's the point I was trying to make. Correct.
Miri (00:05:52):
And I've had to start working very intentionally on how do I put a box around that time around my mental energy and uh, but boundaries apply to so much more there. How much work can I do today? How much work can I do for this person? What can I take on, uh, what will my body allow me to do? And it can be very easy to not realize what your own, frankly, what your own needs are until you're kind of on the other side of them. So learning to set boundaries, we make boundaries! So you know, you kind of like said like you take on too much, you wonder what you can do.
Kaelyn (00:06:34):
Like I personally fall into this trap constantly where it's like, yeah, I can do that, I can do that. Um, I imagine like in writing communities, because you do a lot for your writing communities.
Miri (00:06:45):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:06:45):
And things can just put, you can just come home at the end of the day and go, I think I just agreed to the rest of my life. Like, I don't think I have any time free for the remainder of the time I'm here on earth.
Rekka (00:06:58):
Or you can be like me and be like, that's, let me just do it.
Kaelyn (00:07:02):
Yeah.
Rekka (00:07:02):
You know, and not even like someone has asked you to do it is that you end up volunteering because you're frustrated at watching it.
Kaelyn (00:07:09):
Rekka has a lot of those like Thanos moments at the end of -
Rekka (00:07:13):
Pardon me.
Miri (00:07:14):
Oh goodness.
Kaelyn (00:07:16):
You know the post credit scene, the "fine, I'll do it myself".
Rekka (00:07:20):
I thought you were referring to the snap.
Kaelyn (00:07:24):
No, no!
Rekka (00:07:24):
If I could.
Kaelyn (00:07:24):
Well, here's the thing. we could do that with all of the stuff we agreed to and just go half gone.
Miri (00:07:31):
And then we just agreed on more.
Rekka (00:07:33):
Yeah, we would absolutely. It's true. It's true.
Kaelyn (00:07:35):
Well life like commitments grows geometrically if not exponentially, but Rekka does have a lot of the fine, I'll do it to myself, which is one of the things we love about her. It's going on a mug. Oh, absolutely.
Miri (00:07:51):
Uh, going back to that, the pitfalls, um, entering a new, any new community, but especially writing community because it's a community of freelancers and hustlers and stay in the hamster wheel or die as Rekka has set a couple of times.
Rekka (00:08:06):
Yeah.
Miri (00:08:07):
It's very easy to think, Oh, participating in this community means I have to be doing that amount of stuff all the time. Like that is the entry fee and uh, you will burn out. There's this thing called urgent care. And my, uh, my expertise in this topic comes from in a different different zone from writing, but another like constant project, do stuff, do stuff, do stuff. Community is going to urgent care instead of going to the event that I had been preparing for for three weeks. So I, you know, I've, I've been on the wrong side of that line and had to be scooped up as a puddle of goo.
Kaelyn (00:08:43):
Well you know, and that's something interesting that you bring up because I think we think like burnout is like, Oh well whatever and I just sleep and I'll be fine. Like sometimes this becomes like an actual medical issue. Like I don't think people understand like this can actually be very serious like trying overtaxing yourself and trying to do too much. The stress aside, the sleep deprivation.
Miri (00:09:05):
Yes.
Rekka (00:09:05):
And not only that, like this is not something like, Oh, but I can manage it like your body functions in a certain way. When you are stressed, you produce cortisol and cortisol prevents you from sleeping and not sleeping prevents you from healing properly and rest in recuperating from the small things that are supposed to happen just in normal life. But then you pile on top of that and you're not physically equipping yourself to recover from it and you just keep saying, I can kick this can down the road and I will take a week off and sleep after this event.
Kaelyn (00:09:38):
And that's not quite how it ends up working.
Rekka (00:09:41):
Your body's not going to wait for you to have time for it.
Miri (00:09:45):
There was a tweet going around a while back that was if you do not pick a day to rest, your body will pick one for you.
Kaelyn (00:09:51):
Oh, it's very true. I mean I like I think back to when I was in grad school and like I was a TA, um, I was a TA, I still had a full class load and then we had comps. You have comprehensive final exams, which are basically, you get three professors on your board and you're going to take a six hour test written test and you have no idea what they're going to ask you. My favorite was one of my, so like you have your main guy and you get three hours, three hours.
Rekka (00:10:24):
Yeah. We've talked in past episodes about how the human mind can focus for about 40 minutes.
Kaelyn (00:10:29):
Yeah, well three hours because they expect you're going to need to take some time to organize your thoughts. Okay. So one professor, your main guy you get three hours with and they could give you five questions and tell you to pick three and write three one hour essays about them. They could give you, you know, any combination of different things. Then you get an hour and a half with each other professor and they're going to do the same thing. I had a friend who for his three hour thing opened his booklet, had one question and it said, is there something inherently totalitarian about modernity? Go
Miri (00:11:05):
Oh I can't and no can. Here's the thing. No. Done hand in the book.
Rekka (00:11:20):
I'm just saying no to the situation. Not no to the question. I'm saying no to the no I'm not, I have no idea.
Kaelyn (00:11:25):
You know. So we took a break and I remember like I'm talking to him and he was like shaking and he was like, I have to go back in there and finish another three hours on this. And like I felt horrible because that just wiped him out. Just that no.
Rekka (00:11:43):
When you said six hour exam, I'm thinking that's not a test of knowledge or retention. That's an endurance test.
Kaelyn (00:11:48):
It's, it is definitely a like, can you, can I give you a that you can talk intelligently about and show that you've internalized and digest enough information that you can apply it to the question I'm asking.
Rekka (00:12:00):
You can do that in 20 minutes. You don't have to be war crime cruel about it.
Kaelyn (00:12:05):
Yeah. Well then after that you have the oral exam. So then you go into a room with the three professors and they each get 20 minutes with you. So we always would joke, um, if you can get them to fight with you, you'll pass. If you can get them to fight with each other, you pass with distinction.
Miri (00:12:20):
Uh, is there something inherently totalitarian about grad school? Left as an exercise to the listener. And this is where name of the wind came from? I think so.
Rekka (00:12:29):
Actually ...
Miri (00:12:31):
That and student loans? Yes.
Kaelyn (00:12:34):
So the whole point is that I left that exam and I just about collapsed. Like I went home and I didn't go to sleep. I intentionally fell on my bed and laid there for a while it was, I shut down.
Miri (00:12:52):
Here's the thing that occurs to me about that you're talking about collapsing from the exhaustion of the the time you have just described on a single day, but you have been quote unquote preparing for this test that you can't prepare for and you've known about it since you started grad school and it has been this stress in the back of your mind this entire time building anxiety, building these scenarios that you imagine where there's no way that you could even walk out of here. We are catching on fire somehow because by the time that you've, like you get there, of course you've come up with a scenario in which you actually combust and the stress build up is almost like as cruel as just the time frame and the phrasing of the questions which are designed to flex and destroy you. Um, the buildup to this is almost worse now almost.
Kaelyn (00:13:40):
And see, that's actually an interesting point because I, this is a coping mechanism, not just for this, but I'll use the, I'll continue to send as an example. You don't think about it your first year of grad school, you do not think about this one. There's no point to, you're not ready to think about an and try to prepare at that point anyway, but, and there's kind of, you know, a schedule. You see what the second year is we're doing when you're a first year, I mean everything but the denial and the, I'm just not thinking about, this is sometimes a valid coping mechanism. If it's not, if it legitimately is not something you can do anything about right now.
Rekka (00:14:20):
Right. But here's how we have global warming.
Kaelyn (00:14:23):
Well that's not true because you can do something about that right now.
Rekka (00:14:26):
But I mean like you can't look that far ahead into the future to see the consequences. Like the consequence of joining grad school is I have to take this horrible test, you know? And so it's, I think you're right. It's a coping mechanism and it's one that our, our minds employ in voluntarily against our wishes maybe. And so one thing we do is we say, yeah, I can do that. I can add that to my plate because I don't see the situation to bring it back around to Miri's point. I don't see the situation in which I can't take this on.
Kaelyn (00:14:54):
Well, it's also, I can do that without thinking down the line about what the real impact of that is going to be.
Miri (00:15:01):
I think that's what Rekka was saying. It's like, yes, I'm in a vacuum right now. I'm not thinking about this other thing that's happening. Or the other 12 things I've, I've stuffed in my little knapsack of stuff I need to do. So, of course I can do this thing. I am a human who would be able to do this thing. Yeah. On its own. I can absolutely do that thing. I could probably do that thing in 15 minutes and really well, yes.
Kaelyn (00:15:23):
But you know, and sometimes though you can fall into a trap and I will say like this happens to me sometimes where you have so much to do and you can't make yourself start doing any of it.
Miri (00:15:35):
Oh, I think we're all familiar with that feeling. Yeah. And somehow amazingly bad at realizing that feeling is going to happen again.
Kaelyn (00:15:44):
Yeah. Like sometimes like there are like silly, like I have a list of like things that will take me 15 minutes to do, but there's a lot of them and the lot of them is the overwhelming part. And it's like, so if I sit down and start doing this, it's not going to take me 15 minutes going to take me four hours because I've got, you know, so many 15,30 minute things to do. And that can make you not want to do any of them just dipping your toe in the water is this scary prospect.
Rekka (00:16:11):
Yeah. And you start to wait for like the perfect day to get things done.
Miri (00:16:15):
Listener, the perfect day. It does not exist. So we've been talking a lot about the boundaries around what things can I take on. But there's also a boundaries around how we spend our mental and emotional energy. And we've talked a lot about mental energy, but not necessarily emotional energy. And I think the best example for that is Twitter.
Rekka (00:16:37):
Ah, the horrible thing about Twitter is Twitter's a horrible thing.
Kaelyn (00:16:40):
So horrible.
Rekka (00:16:41):
Not great. Yeah. And the the scroll, the wall of text never ending. You have eight new notifies, you know, eight new posts to read since you've just reloaded this page kind of constant input thing makes you feel like everyone out there is doing things constantly.
Miri (00:17:00):
Yes. And I think part of that is as you're reading Twitter and Twitter, to be clear, Twitter is set up to make you feel like this.
Rekka (00:17:08):
Yes.
Miri (00:17:08):
Twitter has set up to take your eyes away from the different names and different icons and you just see all the stuff and instead of realizing, Oh this is a hundred different people rotating, taking two really busy, really productive days. It just feels like the community is constantly doing all this stuff and posting all the time. And why aren't you and why aren't you? Don't you know there's a convention practically every weekend that you could be at.
Miri (00:17:42):
But yeah, it's that, that pressure that I'm missing something, I'm missing something and I should be doing something. And you probably just at your phone when you were going to do something else actually productive.
Kaelyn (00:17:53):
And it's not just a pressure of like, Oh, look at these people posting about like all this stuff they're doing. To me, just the posting is overwhelming. Like the idea of having to like do all of this and put this much time, effort and energy into it, I don't like it.
Rekka (00:18:09):
It's okay not to like it. Um, unfortunately in this current algorithm based society, you can't avoid it unless you can create something better, which you then eventually have to fund with algorithm driven data and advertising. So like it's, we are stuck in a cycle of this is how humans now behave with each other in an etheric plane of like over-ness and poor communication.
Kaelyn (00:18:41):
Yeah.
Miri (00:18:42):
So like, like humanity, but faster, yes.
Rekka (00:18:46):
Like humanity, but faster and completely binary in that either this person is here, present and on, or this person must be not here at all. This person does not exist.
Miri (00:18:56):
Right.
Rekka (00:18:57):
And so, or at least that's how you internalize what happens if you don't do it right. And so that's a lot of pressure. So how do you boundar-ize? Something like social media, the feed.
Miri (00:19:09):
The feed. Uh, the things I've had to start doing are I have seasons of just straight up taking the stuff off my phone, but we're going to assume that you're still here because you have a reason to be here. One, there are some tools within Twitter and platforms like Twitter that will let you manage the flood. Um, mutes are your friend muting words, muting accounts that you don't have to deal with. If you don't want to see them, you don't want them to see that you've blocked them. There's a whole muting blocking internet ettiquite thing that is bizarre. Dark, ignore Twitter.
Rekka (00:19:45):
Dark, ignore Twitter.
Miri (00:19:47):
Um, and for the longest time I had really internalized like, Oh, if I mute this person, they're winning. Or Oh, I should just be a big enough person to not need to use these tools.
Kaelyn (00:19:58):
Like I should just be able to look at this and keep going without it de-railing my day.
Rekka (00:20:02):
And this is definitely like 100% of boundary thing. Like you can set the boundary of this person's diatribes or this person's nonsense or this person's constant demands of other people is not good for me, not worth my time. I should not be allocating time to even skimming this content.
Kaelyn (00:20:23):
And I think we have this mentality where we think like, why is this a big deal? This shouldn't be a big deal for me. I'm going to tell myself it's not a big deal and therefore it's not going to be a big deal, but that's not how this works because 10, even five years ago, we were not this consistently bombarded with stimuli and information that we had to take in and process.
Rekka (00:20:45):
Not only that, but these are little blue screens that activate our, our like our minds in a way that most other, um, things that we ever dealt with other people from a distance like writing letters was never a blue screen in your eyes, like waking you back up kind of activity. Like you run a candle, lighting and red light is way more relaxing and comforting and that sort of thing. Then, um, the blue light that simulates daylight. Like get up there, go out, do some work, be active versus Hey it's a fire that probably means the sun's down. That probably means like it's time to get cozy and start winding our way toward bed. This is like the exact opposite and it's in our faces and like that just always occurs to me that not only are we getting this strange constant input, we're getting it mechanically in a way that like it just agitates our brains.
Kaelyn (00:21:35):
Yeah. And like I think we are still like going like well how come all of a sudden I'm part of this group of people that can't deal with this. Humanity's been humanity for as long as humanities exists.
Rekka (00:21:47):
People will always people. Exactly.
Kaelyn (00:21:49):
But like things are very different now. Even I, like I said, definitely within the last decade I would go so far as to say even in the last five years, we're needing to learn new ways to process, cope with an interact with information in the world around us. So saying, this is bothering me and I need to mute this award or this person or something. There is nothing wrong with that. That doesn't make you like less able to take the world around you. It means that you have more of the world that you have to deal with now and saying, okay, I've hit the max of the world.
Miri (00:22:30):
Oh there's a mood.
Kaelyn (00:22:33):
That doesn't make you weak. That doesn't make you, you know, like mentally fatigued or you, no one should look down on you.
Miri (00:22:41):
I mean it certainly does make you mentally fatigue. Well the fatigue is real. It's just that it's, it's real, it's fatigue, it's emotional fatigue.
Kaelyn (00:22:52):
And there's nothing wrong with admitting to that.
Rekka (00:22:54):
Yeah. I think part of it is when we are socially conscious, we feel like muting a trigger word is going to somehow we feel like we're trying to erase our responsibility for like what we could change in the world and therefore like if you don't watch a topic that you are failing to improve the world around that topic or something like that. And that's, again, this is just Twitter, but also Twitter doesn't change any of this -
Kaelyn (00:23:20):
And this goes back to boundaries. Like you can't fix every problem and you know, social like I think that's another thing like those of us that are socially conscious and like care about these issues and stuff, want to help with everything and you can't help with everything. You physically can't do it. You're, if you want to, that's great, but you're going to kill yourself trying to, it's going to hurt you.
Miri (00:23:44):
You're able to engage better, whether it's in your work, in your communities, in a social issue that you're really working on if you are not skiddish scared or dead.
New Speaker (00:23:55):
Yup.
New Speaker (00:23:56):
Actually that last one for some reason.
New Speaker (00:23:57):
Yeah, that's very strange. How like dead people are not super productive and you know, I'm not calling them -
Speaker 1 (00:24:04):
Well there were those mushroom farms.
Rekka (00:24:07):
That's true.
Miri (00:24:08):
That that's useful. But again, they're focused on one thing.
Rekka (00:24:12):
They're focused on One thing.
Kaelyn (00:24:13):
I want one of those bags they put you in that a tree grows out of.
Rekka (00:24:17):
That would actually solve all these problems. Okay. So we're go turn yourself into a bag from which a tree can grow. But yes, skiddish scared or dead.
Miri (00:24:26):
And we see a lot of, you know, there's a fear of the fairly justified fear of the Twitter pylon or of saying the wrong thing. Um, or of genuinely making an ass of yourself. But, uh, you can just not, okay. I'm not going to say you can just, it is not, you can just, we doing a whole episode about how it is really hard to not to engage, um, yeah. Using mutes up blocking people. You can block people. It's okay. It's fine. Uh, someone shows up in your DMS that you've never met before. Making explicit commentary blocked, done, goodbye.
Kaelyn (00:25:04):
Don't even reply. Just gone.
Miri (00:25:07):
But beyond the things that, uh, something like Twitter will let you mechanically do, there is an exercise of going, what about this scares me? What am I worried about? What am I constantly, you know, turning the scenarios over my head and doing whatever it takes to mitigate that. So for me, no, I want to be talking to people. I, I've liked the notifications. I love that little dopamine hit. And that became very dangerous for me because I'm spending so much time on line and on my phone and I have a billion other hobbies and I'm like, why am I so tired all the time?
Rekka (00:25:42):
You just need more coffee.
Miri (00:25:44):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:25:45):
But you hit on something very interesting is the flip side of that, which is you can get addicted to this.
Miri (00:25:50):
Oh, it's designed for that.
Rekka (00:25:52):
I mean dopamine is an addictive substance and we make it ourselves.
Kaelyn (00:25:55):
And we want the interaction. You want the retweets because you want to see people loving you on Twitter
Rekka (00:26:02):
And if they won't love you, maybe they'll argue with you.
Kaelyn (00:26:05):
It's also validation.
Rekka (00:26:05):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:26:07):
And we as people crave that and that's a different kind of boundary where you have to stop and take a step back and go like, all right, the metric of how well my life is going is not my Twitter notifications.
Rekka (00:26:22):
If you say so.
Kaelyn (00:26:25):
But that's a, that's a pit a lot of people fall into. And like you said in this just all circles back to. Am I doing enough with this? Because look at how, look at how many likes and retweets this person gets and I only get this, they must be doing more and doing it better.
Miri (00:26:39):
Right. So it's, it is not a novel observation that on social media you're seeing other people's curated highlights, reel of their lives, but you're also not seeing either what a shambles the rest of their life is in to make that happen. Or conversely, what else they're giving up to make that strong time consuming social media presence part of a life that also functions.
Kaelyn (00:27:08):
If at all.
Rekka (00:27:09):
If at all.
Kaelyn (00:27:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Well like I think it's, you know, like we're seeing this more and more with like Instagram influencers. We've kind of now moved away from this. I like this romanticized notion of like this is how their life actually is. Like everyone knows now like this -
Rekka (00:27:23):
It is a hustle.
Kaelyn (00:27:23):
Yeah, it's a hustle and they're renting staged apartments in New York to take a picture that looks like I just woke up and I'm having this coffee and this coffee is made with these special beans that are going to improve your skin and hair and nails. And also it's made from unicorn blood and other things.
Miri (00:27:44):
I mean, we can know that, but if you're just scrolling through.
Rekka (00:27:49):
It still communicates, this is a desirable life. Why don't you have it exactly. If only you just worked harder and rented random apartments in New York city.
Miri (00:27:59):
As, as we really all should be doing as writers. Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:28:04):
I mean, I rent an apartment in New York city.
Rekka (00:28:07):
It's not random though. It's a determined.
Kaelyn (00:28:09):
No, I mean I live there for a reason.
Miri (00:28:12):
And then the, the other part of boundaries, which I think gets, I know I have glossed over in the past of like, Oh, boundaries are for me there to keep my life in some carbon-based shape of a thing that functions. Uh, your boundaries are really important for how you interact with other people and especially -
Kaelyn (00:28:30):
Oh definitely, yeah.
Miri (00:28:31):
- people who you have a professional or paraprofessional relationship with. You are a human person. And if you ostensibly, ostensibly, and if you have a deadline, whether it's you know, a book or an article or whatever it is, and you can feel deep in your soul that I am not okay, I'm not going to make this. The, the reflexive thing to do is say, Oh no, I can, I can rally, I can make it work. I can make it happen. I can make it happen. I can make it happen. Right. Until you pass out on the floor for the 24 hours before and 48 hours after that deadline and look at what society does to us. The little engine that could, like that is a train that has no boundaries.
Rekka (00:29:19):
I want to see that cover now. A train that has no boundaries.
Kaelyn (00:29:24):
I think I can, I think I can. I think I can and
Rekka (00:29:27):
Oh wait, Nope. Can't,
Kaelyn (00:29:29):
I can tell you as an editor, like sometimes I've been in positions where I have not correctly estimated the amount of time it's going to take me to do something. I know, I know, I know. Or, you know, you kind of read through something and you come up with a plan and you go like, okay, this, this, this and this. Probably gonna take me about this. Then you go back to it and that whole plan goes in the garbage and you're starting, you know, you're like, Oh wait, I forgot about this thing. So like I've written to authors and been like, Hey, I just, I'm taking another 12 hours with this. I didn't forget about you. This is coming. But in order for me to get this to a place where I'm happy giving it back to you, I need another 12 hours with it. I'll have it to you in the next day or so. I'm on the other side with authors.
Kaelyn (00:30:20):
I would much rather you send me that same email and just say, listen, like I'm not finished with this yet and I, I need some time with this because especially something with writing, this is not a matter of like I'm building a bookshelf and the bookshelf, I'm finished building the bookshelf when the bookshelf is built, there's a lot of like thought and emotion and mental time and energy. This is something like, I always call this invisible hours, the time that you have to spend just thinking about something and I'm going to say, I will say this and I don't mean it in the most literal sense. Well I do mean it in a very literal sense. You have nothing to show for it and by that I mean you do not have anything physical that you can put in front of somebody and say, I did this. Mentally you have done a lot of work and one that's exhausting and two, it takes a lot of time. So you know, I call these invisible hours because they are hours you spend working with what you make at the end of them. No one else can see.
Miri (00:31:22):
Oh, that's why so many of us have other, other creative hobbies.
Rekka (00:31:26):
That serve as very nice distractions when the thing that we're really wanting to make. Yeah. The, um, the thing that occurs to me is that those invisible hours are, um, unnecessary comp. Like, you know, you're not saying they're not worth anything you're saying.
Kaelyn (00:31:43):
Absolutely. They're very important.
Rekka (00:31:45):
Um, and you need to have them. And if you're not immersed fully in your project, like when you are immersed fully in your project, you're sort of existing in a sphere where you are always processing that information. When you allow yourself to work on other things or if your time can't be focused. Um, if you spend a lot of distracted time on Twitter, you are not mentally processing those things. You are mentally processing other people's things. And so when you do sit down to work, if you have 15 minutes, it's not the same as if you had 15 minutes when you'd been working on this one project focused all week. It's now I need to put my brain back in that space and do some of that mental processing. So that feels like I used to be able to write, you know, at least 300 words in 15 minutes. Why can't I do this anymore? It's like you are trying to do the same work and allowing yourself less time.
Kaelyn (00:32:37):
I have put on the noise canceling headphones and you know this is not a recommendation or endorsement of this but noise canceling headphones, glass of wine or you know, a nice coffee, whatever. You know you're kind of relaxing beverages.
Rekka (00:32:51):
Your poison.
Kaelyn (00:32:52):
Yup. Gotten blank pieces of computer paper sat in front of me and just stared into space thinking, thinking for 30 minutes, wrote a whole bunch of stuff down. Stop. Think the human brain develops and processes information a certain way. And I use like, I have two little nephews now and I'm learning all kinds of interesting stuff about how babies brains work. One of the reasons babies need to nap so frequently is because everything is new to them.
Rekka (00:33:22):
Everything is stimulus.
Kaelyn (00:33:23):
Everything is stimulus. They can't filter out stuff in the back. So part of it is their babies and you know, they just need to nap a lot. But a lot of it is actually mental fatigue that they're napping because their brain needs now three hours to kind of sort through everything that they just took it.
Rekka (00:33:41):
And that's an important point is that when you're sleeping, that's not you being inactive. That is your brain building back its resiliency and also processing the information that you've taken.
Kaelyn (00:33:50):
And that's why you frequently dream about stuff that happened to you that day.
Rekka (00:33:53):
Or that's why you think of stuff in the shower when you've like turned off everything but like automatic mechanical movements so your brain can process more information. You know, like that's basically shutting down all the programs so that the process that was freed up.
Kaelyn (00:34:07):
It's exactly what it is.
New Speaker (00:34:08):
Works even better than showers, which sometimes you're not conscious when you figure things out.
Miri (00:34:12):
Which is why sleep deprivation is a hell of a drug.
Rekka (00:34:16):
It's a torture.
Miri (00:34:17):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:34:18):
No, I mean it is literally is.
Miri (00:34:21):
When we say writers torture themselves, we are not kidding.
Rekka (00:34:24):
Yes. Governments of the world use this method to like destroy people so they can break them down and get what they want out of the pieces of human shell that they're left on the ground. And you not do this to yourself voluntarily. When you push, push.
Kaelyn (00:34:40):
You're not productive, they do this with um, driving experiments a lot. Are you a worse driver sleep deprived or after drinking? And do you know what? It's a toss up depending on who it is I've seen.
Rekka (00:34:51):
I've seen studies that point to sleep and I just, yeah, obviously we don't want to be drinking and driving. I don't like this plan, but -
Kaelyn (00:34:57):
Do not drink and drive.
Rekka (00:34:58):
Both of these situations bad.
Kaelyn (00:35:00):
Yeah. So anyway, the whole point is like, be kind to yourself with this kind of stuff. Don't push yourself too far and look at everyone else and go, well they're doing all of this. I should be able to as well.
Miri (00:35:14):
And just like invisible hours, you have invisible labor. Um, maybe somebody, you got an email or even fan mail or just some little thing that's super harmless and just asking you, Hey, can you do this real quick? Or even just really effusive praise or whatever it is and it's, this requires a response from me and, Oh gosh, no, I can't do that right now. I'm thinking about why that might be the case. And what do you feel is expected of you in those moments?
Kaelyn (00:35:43):
You know, I'm an acquisitions editor. One of the things that it was very surprised by was when I'd send out rejections, um, I'd get, not a lot, but like some responses back saying, you know, very nice, you know, polite saying, thank you so much. Um, you know, is there any way I could ask you for like some notes on this or just like a little bit of like what I could have done better here. And, um, I was talking to, uh, someone who's now a good friend who's also an editor. And like, I was just like, yeah, I don't know what, like, I don't have time for this. And he said, of course you don't, and you don't owe anyone your time. Like you rejected their manuscript, you know,
Rekka (00:36:22):
That was the response that you owed.
Kaelyn (00:36:23):
That was the response yes or no, and you don't owe them, you know, notes and things and like don't make yourself feel bad about that.
Miri (00:36:34):
And especially in this writing sphere, I think you're dealing with a lot of people who have entered it at different points, different recency's who just genuinely do not know. And I know my instinct in those moments is going, Oh, they don't know. They don't know better. It's okay, I can, I can help this one better. I can teach them. And the thing is teaching is a skill and it's a, it's labor. And it's not my responsibility to account for the fact that other people don't know things. I'm not going to be a jerk to them, but I don't owe them anything.
Rekka (00:37:09):
And you were saying the emotional labor of just receiving an email that you do want to respond to. Um, and sometimes you're like, Oh, well I can just do that right now. Like, let me just take care of that. Except it's 10 o'clock on a Saturday night. Now the person's gotten a response from you in five minutes and they wrote you back. Now what? And you've created a pattern. Even though there's it's you know, sample size of one, you are setting yourself up to create a pattern of replying to people within five minutes of them sending you an email to a fan that is amazing. They are online live with this, you know, author that they wrote reached out to because they wanted to talk to them and engage with them. But now, now it's 3:00 AM on Sunday morning and you're still replying to this person and you want to go to bed.
Rekka (00:37:53):
Um, you know, one thing I like to do to set a boundary, and I do this with my employer too because my manager works all weekend because no one stops her. And so when she sends me an email or a text or something like that, I will reply. I will either reply, yes, I'll send it to you on Monday or I won't necessarily reply for a couple of hours. If like I'm doing something reasonable like having dinner with my family, you know like setting the expectation that you do not immediately turn something around even if it's quick, even if it's easy sets you up that they are not going to go well. You normally get this to me really fast. Why did this take five days or something like that? Like I usually let an email from a reader sit for a day or two so that the, the expectation is not that I reply immediately.
Kaelyn (00:38:40):
I um, actually have a thing that I do and like, you know, I'm not flooded with emails generally. I mean sometimes some weird times of the year are busier than others but like I usually get a few a week with just some questions or you know, Hey take a look at my portfolio. Or when are you guys going to be open for submissions? Again, I try to take time with those kinds of things and set aside an hour or two hours, however long I need to sit down and answer all of those at once. Because the same thing I could just keep reply doing because a lot of times people do write back to me and you can even get stuck in the thank you loop where it's like you too. Thank you so much for your quick response and you know, I'm really excited for, you know, this kind of thing and then like, Oh thanks. That's a nice thing for you to say.
Rekka (00:39:30):
This is an improv trick. Yes and.
Kaelyn (00:39:32):
Exactly.
Miri (00:39:32):
You hang up. No, you hang. Exactly. Exactly.
Kaelyn (00:39:35):
So, but like I do take time and sit down and like I try to do it once a week. Um, you know, if there's things that are more urgent that I see that come in, I'll, you know, get to them immediately. But if it's just like general questions because I could spend -
Miri (00:39:50):
The rest of your life.
Kaelyn (00:39:51):
But, and I know it seems like a strange thing to say, but every time I sit here and I open this and I have to compose the email and like think about it. Whereas like if I'm answering a whole bunch of the same questions, I can answer those real quick and condensing all of that together really helps me with that and to manage communicating with people.
Miri (00:40:10):
And that's the thing about these quote small requests unquote is that they're not and it's not conscious, but they're not just requesting a quick response. They're requesting you to put down whatever it was you were doing. Switch gears into that thing, I guess. Thoughtful, whatever dance of combination of thoughtful.
Rekka (00:40:30):
Accurate, accurate.
Miri (00:40:32):
And not promising anything. Response, send it off, spend a little bit of extra time decompressing from that and then -
Rekka (00:40:41):
Figuring out where you were and go back to it. Now you, yeah, you've got two tasks that may not have been performed to what you would consider your standard.
Kaelyn (00:40:48):
Well, like if every time I stopped, every time I got one of these emails, I stopped everything that I was doing and I replied to it immediately. That's maybe seven to 10 minutes per email, depending from stopping what I'm doing, opening this up, reading their thing, composing a reply, hitting send, putting it down, going back to what I was doing, seven to 10 minutes, depending on what I've got to write back to them. If I sit down and do all of it at once. Each of those emails is only taking me two or three minutes per email.
Rekka (00:41:12):
Right. Time lost on either end. When you consolidate them is -
Kaelyn (00:41:16):
Exactly. Yeah. And like I know it's like, Oh, so what's the big deal? It's like, no, it's, it's the mentally taking yourself out of something else.
Miri (00:41:25):
Someone else does not get to decide what is a big deal for you. Yeah.
Rekka (00:41:29):
An email, a telephone call, a text message does not have a right to be responded to and acknowledged immediately. Yup.
Miri (00:41:36):
And if you're like me and you see the email pop up because you're always looking at your screen for some reason and your instinct is to go, Oh, that's real quick on. And if I had the more insidious one, if I put this away now, I'm not going to remember to come back to it.
Rekka (00:41:51):
So don't look at it in the first place if you don't have time.
Miri (00:41:54):
Yeah. And the way we do this is filters.
Rekka (00:41:57):
Yeah.
Miri (00:41:57):
Filters are good. And then I can have a to do list item. That's okay. Go look at my unsorted filter or my, um, if I'm at my day job filters from different technology tools that different people use to communicate with me. It's okay. I'm in answer product issue mode now. Yup. No, we can go. Um, I do think there's, uh, another aspect of this that, can I invoke the, the gender specter?
Kaelyn (00:42:22):
Oh, absolutely.
Rekka (00:42:23):
Yeah. Yeah. We can, except there are like infinite genders. So go through the infinite.
Kaelyn (00:42:29):
So let's start right now and um, what, in maybe 36 hours or so.
Miri (00:42:34):
Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:42:34):
That's done. You don't have a plane to catch or anything.
Miri (00:42:38):
Um, I do think there is a little bit more pressure on women, femme people, people who are socialized female to be responsive and be friendly -
Kaelyn (00:42:51):
And to be appeasing.
Rekka (00:42:52):
To be appeasing, peacemakers.
Miri (00:42:54):
Exactly. Yeah. So I have definitely seen writers who fit that description, expressing more pressure to respond either quickly or at all because, Oh, if you're not responding, then you're just being, you're being cold.
Rekka (00:43:12):
And selfish, you're selfish, you're icy.
Miri (00:43:15):
And this can extend to somebody who just sent me this really nasty letter going through all the different things that I did wrong on my book. What should I say? And the answer is nothing.
Rekka (00:43:28):
Nothing. You can delete the email and move on with your life.
Kaelyn (00:43:31):
I've had, I mean, part of it, and this is the thing that like this can, this will be the brain fuck that starts messing with you. Am I just like this or am I like this because I was socially conditioned to be like this? Um, that's a spiral. You can just be like this. It is okay. But some of it is that I am just like this, but, um, I'm very used to, especially in my day job, having to be very, very clear about what I'm saying and what should be done because it's just part of the nature of the job. And when I'm responding to people with publishing things, like I parse the words to the point that sometimes they don't mean anything anymore. Um, but that's happened to me where like I've, you know, responded to someone and been like very nice and I've gotten back like, ah, well that's not, and at that point I was just like, okay, well I tried buddy. I don't know what to tell you. Um, but that's a boundary that you have to put up for yourself is like -
Rekka (00:44:33):
Because they put you on your, on your back foot trying to make you apologetic like that, that they could just be grumpy and delete your email and be unsatisfied with your answer. But the fact that they write back to you and let you know they are grumpy expects a, uh, you know, capitulation in their favor.
Kaelyn (00:44:50):
Yeah. Well, like I get a lot of, you know, um, when are you guys going to be open for submissions? And if my response is like, Hey, I don't know, um, you know, we're gonna see how you're going to see w what we need. Uh, just, you know, follow us on Twitter or sign up for a newsletter. Keep an eye on us. Okay. But like, how will I find out? There's thingsI just told you.
Miri (00:45:11):
Per, my last email.
Kaelyn (00:45:14):
That's the thing. I don't respond to them at that point and that is, that is a boundary I had to set for myself. It's like if I've told you the information and I don't reply to you, like I'm not obligated to keep restating the same.
Miri (00:45:26):
Restate. Yeah. Telling you that we really want that closure. We want to feel like the conversation has ended. It can't just end.
Kaelyn (00:45:32):
That was a hard mental shift for me was just being like, okay, I'm not responding to this person. I am not used to not responding to people, but I had to because I could spend the rest of my life doing that.
Rekka (00:45:45):
Yup. Yeah. This is the person at the bar who is had too much confidence maybe in this case or or entitlement or whatever and they just won't leave you alone. Do you get up and leave the bar or do you spend the night in jail because you just had to respond and and you know like it, it escalates because these situations tend to escalate and if you start to feel like, Oh my God, I'm never going to get out of this email, that is an escalating situation that you could probably just close the window and not reply to.
Miri (00:46:12):
Yup. Yup. Add that person to your block list,
Rekka (00:46:14):
Yup yup, screenshot the problems. I tend to not delete emails where people are starting to get aggressive just so that I have a record, but that doesn't mean I'm going to reply and it doesn't mean I'm going to leave it in my inbox for me to see every time I go in there. I've got a folder for that.
Miri (00:46:30):
Yup. Yup. Folders and filters go in there and filters go in there when you're well rested.
Rekka (00:46:34):
Or don't go in at all.
Miri (00:46:35):
Or didn't go in at all.
Rekka (00:46:36):
Make it a lobster trap where it's one way only. If you go in there, you're not coming out almost. I need police evidence,
Miri (00:46:44):
so we've talked a lot about having boundaries and kind of knowing what those need to be and not a lot about. It's really hard to know what your boundaries need to be like that. The example I gave of, you know, you say I can do it, I can do it. I can do it right up until you crash in entirely miss whatever it was you needed to do. It's not necessarily that you actually, I'm going to put this on the, on the personal example is not necessarily the, I was realizing and you know, maliciously making the decision to torture myself. I literally couldn't tell that it was going to happen until I've had years and years of heavy duty hobbies working on stuff constantly on the clock, off the clock, whatever it is, and started to identify the signs early of, Oh no, you need to stop because I have gone to urgent care instead of going to a convention that I was preparing for, I have gotten back from trips and just passed out on the floor for 16 hours a day. Do not do that.
Rekka (00:47:47):
I mean, at least make it to the bed.
Miri (00:47:48):
At least make it to the bed are bad for your neck. So if you realize, Oh, I might have a problem with this, uh, start looking for those signs.
Rekka (00:47:57):
Yeah. The nice thing about patterns is that we can analyze them.
Miri (00:47:59):
Yeah. We're really good at that. When we start to pay attention.
Rekka (00:48:02):
When you do an objective, like you can write a list of these are the symptoms, and then when you start to feel the symptoms, like hang that list up where you're going to walk in front of it and go, Oh shoot, Oh shoot. That's like three of them.
Kaelyn (00:48:13):
Just this morning I was just talking to Rekka about this, that like I was, you know, going through a phase of that where it's like I am objectively recognizing that things are happening to me that I know in the past have led to other bad things, but I can't stop and Rekka's like you need, you need to take a breath and you need to kind of like get yourself together here and, but I will say, here's the thing, sometimes things happen in your life that you can't, sometimes there is just a lot to deal with all of a sudden and,
Rekka (00:48:49):
and if you're already taxed by your own decisions, you get to that point and you don't,
Kaelyn (00:48:55):
You don't have, you don't have your writing career and life in a vacuum. Right. You know, you don't see these people and they're like, well, they're doing all of this other stuff. Well here's the thing. Maybe they're at a point in their life, in their career where that can be the only thing they're responsible for or that they have to do. So yes, they have hours and hours a day to spend on this. Judging yourself in the context of other people is never productive.
Rekka (00:49:20):
Yeah. I mean they might be unemployed looking for work, depressed about it and on Twitter because it keeps them from having to think about how they don't have a job.
Kaelyn (00:49:27):
Yeah, so like everyone we've been hearing since kindergarten, don't compare yourself to other people.
Rekka (00:49:33):
I don't think they ever told me that in kindergarten.
Kaelyn (00:49:37):
I went to a very progressive school where we talked a lot about feelings.
Miri (00:49:42):
Oh no, my school was very much compare yourself to other people, be better, do more. And that's how we got here. Actually, I want to follow up on what Kaelyn said. What are, what are some ways to throw up emergency boundaries if you realize this thing has happened. And now my, my threshold for the ability to do writing stuff to do professional stuff is like it's smaller now.
Kaelyn (00:50:06):
Triage method, you got to figure out what's most important that you absolutely have to keep doing. So like if it's, I need to absolutely keep showing up to my job every day. So start there. You know, I must continue to go to work. I must, you know, continue to grocery shop I, you know, things that are just your daily life to keep you going. Stop everything else and then see what you can add back in.
Rekka (00:50:35):
But there's also, what can you actually do that's going to improve the situation? Like what actions can I take that will improve versus I could bang my head against the wall for 17 hours straight and nothing would change. So like, I mean I realize you're not saying prioritize the super important stuff because of course in these moments everything feels super important and overwhelming. But also to judge such things. You have a tendency to want to put effort at the thing that hurts most, but that might not actually improve.
Kaelyn (00:51:08):
I would say that it depends on what the situation here.
Rekka (00:51:13):
Yeah, of course.
Kaelyn (00:51:14):
Sometimes life things just happen and sometimes a lot of times with those life things, you know, depending on their nature, you kind of just have to get through them and wait for them to be over. Like they're a process that like is not going to, there isn't really anything you can do.
Rekka (00:51:34):
For example, grief for example, grief. But allowing yourself to grieve and allowing yourself to heal is the important part of the process.
Kaelyn (00:51:43):
Exactly. But that's what I mean. You just kind of have to get through it. Like it's not something you can say, I'm going to sit down and do this all at once and it'll be done. You have no control over the timeline,
Rekka (00:51:51):
But at the same time, um, gritting your teeth and trying to endure is not actually how you heal in either of those examples. Yeah.
Kaelyn (00:52:00):
Yeah. That's a good point. Um, but those are the things where, I mean more like there are things that you just have to let happen. You can't do anything to make them be over faster. Um, if you, you know, if you try, you're not really like, you're not actually doing it. You're just telling yourself that is, it's done.
Rekka (00:52:17):
And in you're applying mental focus and energy, like, you know, think of your focus time as calories burned, if it, if it helps you imagine the energy you're putting into things. Yeah. Because most people I feel like can understand that as a metric. Um, your brain does use calories. So like we know we're using your brain to think about something else. Those are, you know, that's energy that's not going to like your basic life function. Um, so the more focus and anxiety you dedicate to something, the like that's coming from somewhere else. Yeah.
Miri (00:52:50):
Yeah. And the hard thing in that example is, okay, you're grieving or dealing with illness or whatever, major zero control life thing, building boundaries around the rest of your life so that you can deal with that thing.
Kaelyn (00:53:04):
Yeah. So this kind of stuff, there are a lot of really good online resources for that kind of thing. Like how to deal with grief and death and processing these things. Um, you know, and when I say it like illness, I don't mean even like a chronic thing. I, I got strep throat a few weeks ago. It completely knocked me on my ass and mine didn't even get that bad because I knew I was exposed to it, but like, and it just threw everything out of whack, it sounds like. Oh well, you know, you're just sick for a few days that shouldn't really, you know, impacted -
Miri (00:53:39):
Should is it bad word.
Kaelyn (00:53:41):
Absolutely does. Yeah.
Rekka (00:53:44):
Yeah. And think of like, don't underestimate where you miss one day of homework and we still to make up that homework and then suddenly you're a few days behind and you haven't had, you know -
Kaelyn (00:53:52):
Everything compounds.
Rekka (00:53:54):
- just, and then mentally, the pressure of all that compounds,
Kaelyn (00:53:58):
A bad cold can mess up your, especially if you're already like working to the bone and you know, have very little wiggle room for error.
Rekka (00:54:08):
Yeah. In terms of kind of you're excellent at time management. Something like this can really throw you off and then you are down on yourself because I'm so good at time management. How could I end up so far behind? Even though I have a medical, you know, like a temporary medical condition or even longterm, I'm going to draw an analogy but helped me figure this one out.
Miri (00:54:27):
We're really good at understanding even if we're not able to do it for whatever reason, we're going to understanding that I should have some money set aside for emergencies. Should, should is a bad word. I know, but it is useful to my life.
Kaelyn (00:54:41):
It would be good for me.
Miri (00:54:42):
It would be good for me to have money set aside for emergencies because I understand that things happen.
Rekka (00:54:48):
Yup.
Miri (00:54:49):
But we don't necessarily apply that to our mental and emotional energy. Yeah, and something that hits your mental and emotional stores is at least as likely as something that hits your financial stores.
Kaelyn (00:55:03):
What I was even going to say is, you know like I use the example of like I got strep throat. A bad day has done the same thing to me. Like, and I don't mean like I stubbed my toe. Like, I mean I'm sure we have all had like cosmically hilariously bad days where like the universe is just like anI this now this, now this and you get home and you're like, what is going on? And just needing to, you know, binge watch something on Netflix and relax. And that's the important emotional store to have like this built in because you could just have a really bad day or something could happen that really upsets you. And if you don't address that, that's one thing. But then also if you don't leave yourself the time to work through that,
Miri (00:55:51):
If you're already all the way at your limit all the time and thinking, okay, this is maximum efficiency. I'm using all of my energy for everything and I'm doing as much as I possibly can and this is good and I feel great about it. And then you have one bad day.
Rekka (00:56:05):
The most flexible material in the world still has a point at which it can stretch further or bend no further. I'm not that flexible. I don't know about you, but my skeletons really pesky about like the backbends and everything.
Kaelyn (00:56:18):
I'm overly flexible in ways that I shouldn't be because my joints are all popping in and out of place constantly.
Miri (00:56:23):
I've been told it's really inconvenient to be a carbon based life form.
Kaelyn (00:56:28):
So I'm going to pose a question to both of you guys.
Rekka (00:56:30):
We were not warned about this.
Kaelyn (00:56:34):
No, this is a pop quiz. Um, Miri, we always joke that like, you know, we have the really like solid information, heavy episodes and then we have the more like emotional episodes.
Miri (00:56:43):
This is going to talk about our feelings.
Rekka (00:56:47):
Which we have.
Kaelyn (00:56:49):
Um, everything we've said I think can apply to humans across the board in a lot of respects. Ho. wever, I am kind of of the opinion that writers, I should say creative people in general, but writers where they're kind of trying to make their way into being writers and have to create their own career and build that. Do you think this is especially important for writers as a somewhat unique group?
Miri (00:57:24):
Unique how?
Kaelyn (00:57:27):
Well, like you had mentioned before, you know, the people who have to hustle,
Rekka (00:57:32):
Right, so yeah, I mean I don't think we're unique in that we hustle. I don't think we're unique in that we are quote unquote self employed at least in this sphere. But I think this applies to a lot of not only self-employed but creative self employed people.
Kaelyn (00:57:48):
Definitely.
Rekka (00:57:48):
Um, this could be people who write marketing copy as well as fiction. Um, there is this perception that you have 24 hours in the day. What are you doing with them? Because when you work for yourself, yeah, there's a, there's a comfort that comes from being employed, like having the security security of walking into a job and knowing exactly how many hours you need to spend at that job that day before you leave and go home and you know, on what date and how much you'll be paid. Freelancers, um, and writers can to a very small degree, build a controlled a schedule like that. But there is always the, if I want more I can just do more. If I want to have more books out, I can write more books. Um, so this goes to the boundaries. What is the shape of that process in your life? Is it pound on the keyboard from 5:00 AM until 7:00 PM maybe eat something, then bring the keyboard to the couch, pound on keyboard till fall asleep if you sleep and you know, get up and do it again.
Rekka (00:59:03):
Um, so by taking away the boundary that's set by the daily life of the nine to five American dream job, you have removed a boundary and who disrespects our boundaries than ourselves? I do not know.
Miri (00:59:23):
There isn't any.
Rekka (00:59:23):
No, I mean, I think I've mentioned, um, maybe on the podcast before that I switched jobs, um, in 2018 and began working from home full time. So my writing space had previously been just my writing space and now it was my writing space and doubled as my day job space. And so I had to build a boundary between my writing, quote unquote physical space. Um, and what I did was I created a new login from my computer that when I was going into, right, I logged in as the writer and then when I was logging into my day job, I had to switch and log into my day job.
Rekka (01:00:08):
And that did seem to help because it made me realize consciously like, Oh, if I want to go jog over here and do this thing to this file, I actually have to log out and acknowledge I'm going to spend time doing this now. And then it makes me think, is that what I'm supposed to be doing now?
Kaelyn (01:00:24):
Yeah. You have to, you have to consciously make the decision.
Rekka (01:00:27):
Um, and it's not, and I have it like I have to type in the password. So I like created this delay period where I can go, I'm not even 6:00 AM, why am I logging into my work? No, nevermind. Back out, you know? Um, and then there's also the physical space where I work from home in a home studio where for the first couple of months after I switched the jobs, I was out here til eight or nine at night because I was still working. There was still stuff on the to do list. Here's my secret tip. The to do list will never reach zero.
Miri (01:01:00):
No.
Rekka (01:01:00):
You just have to stop and pick it up again tomorrow. So what I did was I, um, put some lights out here on timers so that they would click off to let me know this is when a normal carbon-based human would exit their office and go home. And you know, you can define those hours as whatever portion of the day. But I mean, think of how we've already talked about you can focus for so long before you burn out. So it's really good to keep in mind how long a normal quote unquote Workday is anyway. And that that might already be kind of pushing the limits. And if you work, it's a horrible like entrepreneurial phrase, but work smarter not harder and it'll sound so awful. But like in terms of -
Kaelyn (01:01:44):
It's kind of valid.
Rekka (01:01:45):
In terms of like work a little bit less but be rusted in and be able to do more. Like I was banging my head against a coding issue that I was having. I went on vacation, I came home, I opened my computer and I solved it. Yup. So unfair.
Miri (01:02:02):
Wild how that happens.
Kaelyn (01:02:05):
All right. So Miri, same question. Do you think that this is anything, you know for, I'll say creative people, but like, right, you know, this is a podcast kind of focused obviously on writing and publishing. Like why is this so important in this community?
Miri (01:02:23):
Especially in this community, especially if there's something unique about this situation of freelancing, hustling created people. It's the confluence of access to an all hours community. A, the access is double-edged access to an all hours community. Uh, sort of endemic, lack of security feeling like, I don't know where my next paycheck is coming from in many cases. Or what if Amazon decides to change the way they do their publishing, um, knowing that you're a very small part of some very large questionably evil systems.
Rekka (01:03:06):
And I, and I know that interrupting Miri's answer to the Kaelyn's question, but I also just want to add in like, and your role models are celebrities.
Miri (01:03:14):
Yeah. That's a very important point.
Rekka (01:03:16):
Stephen King, J K Rowling, you know.
Miri (01:03:19):
Neil Gaiman.
Rekka (01:03:21):
Even, you know, like Brandon Sanderson, um, Patrick Rothfuss, uh, you have people.
Kaelyn (01:03:26):
George RR, Martin,
Rekka (01:03:27):
George Martin and so we've mentioned a couple of them who are dealing with their own boundary and burnout issues. So, um, that, that is quote unquote we're supposed to aspire to. Yeah. And that has a whole nother dimension.
Miri (01:03:42):
And then because we're all interacting in the exact same way, like, you know, you've got George RR Martin's blog or you know, Brandon Sanderson's Reddit posts or whoever's Twitter profiles, we think I am looking at the same type of thing. It is a tweet, therefore it is taking place in the same context and this person is coming from the same place as I am. Um, that tweet is posted by that person assistant. Yes, that person has an assistant, they can pay a full time assistant and you just don't ever know that when you're making those comparisons. But it's the confluence of our role models, our celebrities, lack of security, all hours access to what you could be doing and deep emotional, uh, to the point of fatigue investment in the work that we're creating, which is what separates these creative pursuits from something like freelancing marketing copy. I think, um, you're already going in at a level of emotional fatigue, uh, if you don't moderate it, that is unusual in a lot of these other spaces.
Kaelyn (01:04:45):
I think what is especially unusual with writers, and I can tell you this has happened to me with editors is there is no done. Um, you know, even if you're freelancing writing market copy for instance, there is a point where it's like, okay, I need to give this to someone. So I'm done with it now. Even if, you know, I could sit here and obsess over it for another, you know, two days, but I've got a deadline. I've got to get this best on.
Rekka (01:05:13):
This is perfect.
Miri (01:05:13):
Yup.
Kaelyn (01:05:14):
Yeah. Um, I've got a deadline. Got to give this to someone. Writers, your deadlines are either self-imposed or self-selected. Either you're saying, I must be done by this time or I want it to be done by this time because this is the deadline for something. I want to send it to you, but here's the thing. No one's paying you to get it in by that deadline.
Rekka (01:05:36):
Yeah. Nobody leaves a five star review because you got your book out on time.
Kaelyn (01:05:40):
Well, I'm not even talking about -
Rekka (01:05:42):
No, I know the, the, the, the judgment of the final product is the important thing is the product itself.
Kaelyn (01:05:49):
You can sit and just keep pouring over and keep sending it to readers and keep getting feedback and just get yourself stuck in a loop of that. Um, which I think is fairly unique to writers, even in the context of other creative and freelance types because your deadlines, you're making them yourself.
Miri (01:06:10):
That's not always true. Once you're maybe on a contractor.
Kaelyn (01:06:15):
Well, yes, I'm talking about people that are starting to jumpstart their career.
Rekka (01:06:19):
The, the construct of deadlines can be very helpful. Yeah. Like I could write a book forever and tried because flotsam is a 12 year process before my partner turned to me and said, what if you just finished it? I dragged,
Kaelyn (01:06:36):
Oh, why on earth?
Rekka (01:06:39):
No, but it did kind of make me go, Oh yeah, every man I know I just kind of revise this again and I have an idea. And, and so I go back in and I tack that idea in somewhere and then tried to smooth the wrinkles out through the rest of the thing and it just kept building and building and building until it was an RPG encyclopedia more than a story. So, um, you know, having this concept of I would, I have the goal of doing this by this time is very helpful if it's realistic. Like I had the goal every NaNoWriMo working on the story of revising it by the end of that NaNoWriMo, but I didn't have an end point in mind that really set any realistic or, um, beneficial, um, deadlines for actually releasing the book into the world.
Miri (01:07:29):
Fortunately, it's really easy to estimate how much time something will take. And that's why everyone is very good at it.
Rekka (01:07:37):
Backslash irony. Um, so yeah, the um, the, the concept of like I'm going to, well I always thought every NaNoWriMo was going to mean this book was done and um, and I didn't work out quite so much because by the time I got to the end, I had another new idea that I wanted to squeeze into the same book. So that meant the story idea gremlins. It was like a, uh, an infinite loop of Ooh, and what also, what if, you know, so I had to figure out what I wanted to do and in this case it wasn't work harder, do it again, but perfect time. It was involve outside help.
Miri (01:08:18):
Yup.
Kaelyn (01:08:18):
Yup.
Rekka (01:08:18):
And so I hired an editor and then suddenly within a year I had a publishing contract. I'm not saying it's working, it's not the magic stick for 14 years on each story. And then you will finish it in the following year, in year 15.
Miri (01:08:32):
Once you've hired an editor.
Rekka (01:08:33):
Yeah. Well, yeah. So, I'm not saying that to say that that's the formula to do it, but I'm just saying like, I changed the way I thought about the project. I changed the context under which I was deciding how, how I was going to finish it instead of applying more of my own energy and getting the same result, which was doing it again.
Miri (01:08:51):
Yeah. Rekka did mention how we're very bad at observing our own boundaries, but that is a boundary around yourself. Right. I, um, I'm coming off a three years of doing the same thing of doing the same book for NaNoWriMo and going, but this time it's going to be done reader. It is not done and that's okay. And I'm just going to put it away and work on something else because I had to say, if I can't get this done this time, it is not working and I need to change that. And it's very easy to feel like, Oh, I've failed or I'm losing or whatever it is. But no, it's, you only have so much energy and so many, so many years of NaNoWriMo, so many hours in your life. Um, it's okay to stop yourself if you see yourself going way over what you think should be reasonable. Yeah.
Rekka (01:09:39):
So you set up your boundaries. If you put a moat around your castle, you still have to defend it. Yeah. You still have to defend it.
Miri (01:09:45):
Not have to fill it with sharks.
Rekka (01:09:47):
I'm sorry. I'm messing up our metaphors. If you build a moat around your soccer fields, you still have to defend it with sharks.
Kaelyn (01:09:53):
Thank you.
Rekka (01:09:54):
Yeah. What do you need to do for the rest of the world to know you have them? Do they need to know that you have them or do you just, how do you handle them?
Miri (01:10:04):
It varies based on which boundaries they are. If they're just boundaries around your social media use, for example, um, which could be straight up a social media blocker in your browser, that is a thing that I have that I can click on when I need to. If there are people who might need to get in contact with you and that's a level that you accept and agree is real, then communicating your boundaries to those people is very, very valuable. Like I am on hiatus from Twitter or I'm read only on Twitter. I will communicate with you through this other format or I'm going to be offline but I will get back to you in X time or just putting in your Twitter display name. I'm on hiatus and then, and this is the important part, actually following through with that.
Kaelyn (01:10:49):
See and that's the thing is that like you're, I'm sitting here listening to you talk about like I have a social media blocker that I can put on my browser that would never work for me. I'd just go turn it off and be like, hang on.
Rekka (01:10:59):
At one time I got to do this.
Kaelyn (01:11:00):
I would be like, wait, shoot. I need to check something real quick, click like it would need to be like I have to call Rebecca and she's got to give me the pass code. Like that's the only-
Rekka (01:11:10):
You have to answer three security questions before I do.
Kaelyn (01:11:12):
Well, no, then you go Kaelyn, no.
Miri (01:11:14):
That's, and that's what it's for. That's what record was saying. If you just create the boundary, the line where you can walk up to and say, wait a minute, am I going to do this thing or am I gonna not do this thing?
Rekka (01:11:26):
Do I step over this line?
Miri (01:11:28):
Yep.
Rekka (01:11:28):
Do I cross the bridge under which the sharks are swimming? It is. Okay.
Kaelyn (01:11:33):
You seem to be assuming that I possess a far higher level of impulse control and I actually do.
Miri (01:11:38):
And it's okay to have boundaries that don't work 100% of the time. Good is better than perfect. If you're incrementally improving your situation, that's still worthwhile. Uh, and yes, I do turn the social media blocker off sometimes, but the rest of the time it's there.
Rekka (01:11:52):
And that's again, entrepreneurial phrases that you hear. I was like, do the 20% that gets you more work done than doing the 80% that's just like a little bit of work. Yeah. So like if you turn off a whole bunch of things and then find new distractions, you know, because we're good at this. Yeah. When we want distraction, we find it. You will just find yourself standing in front of the pantry instead of staring at Twitter.
Kaelyn (01:12:18):
Um, do you know how clean my apartment is?
Rekka (01:12:22):
Yeah, exactly. So, um, find the, I guess I would like part of what you're saying is, you know, like if an internet blocker helps you, then that's great. If an internet blocker makes it the next steps, they have longer to go check Twitter because you have to turn off the internet blocker, but you're going to do it anyway then that's not improving your life at all.
Kaelyn (01:12:42):
Right.
Rekka (01:12:42):
And um, you know, like whatever it takes. But also Kaelyn mentioned impulse control. You have better impulse control when you rest just to bring that back around as far as like human physiology. Um, but yeah, like continue what you're saying. I'm sorry we jumped in on that. But like w we are emotionally reacting to everything you're saying because it's true. But also because we feel attacked.
Miri (01:13:07):
I'm attacking myself more than I'm attacking any other team.
Rekka (01:13:09):
I just want to point out for context that um, Miri is wearing a shirt. It's very pretty. It's got flowers and it says, I am very tired.
Miri (01:13:16):
It's designed by a Cara McGee. Uh, you can occasionally find it on her online store, but I saw the design go up online and bought two of them and I have never bought something so fast. Um, but the other kind of boundary that you can have set up and how that relates to communicating it is professional boundaries. And this is that situation where you have a deadline and because your life has gone to pieces through your own actions or the actions of the outside world, you can feel in your soul that you are either not going to make that deadline or not going to make that deadline without grinding yourself into the teeny spaces. But between the carpet nubs, um, that is the same thing. If you can't make the deadline without being a puddle, you cannot make the deadline.
Kaelyn (01:14:04):
The circumstances around why you can't make, it don't matter so much as the fact that you can't.
Miri (01:14:09):
But also the circumstance of I could do it if I just don't sleep for the next 72 hours. That means you can't do it.
Kaelyn (01:14:16):
Yeah.
Miri (01:14:17):
And that is a time when you need to communicate. I can't do it. And you need to communicate that as early as you possibly can. It's, I mean, part of it's honesty with yourself and honestly with yourself is difficult to cultivate. But also if you can't do it, and for the sake of the argument, because I've, I've had this argument with friends, I've had this argument with myself. If you realize you can't do it without going to completely ludicrous extremes, it is better for everyone involved. If you just say that with the maximum amount of time for anybody who's waiting on you or planning for it or dealing with other other wheels of which you are a part can just work that in. And the more, the earlier you can learn to recognize that and like obviously the ideal is that you never take on deadlines you can't meet and everything works perfectly all the time.
Rekka (01:15:07):
But yeah, that happens for quite a few people.
Kaelyn (01:15:09):
Absolutely. A thing that happens to me every day.
Miri (01:15:11):
Yeah. But in this hypothetical scenario where you can't, if you can learn to identify the signs early and either rearrange other things in your life so it doesn't matter, or just identify the signs and go, okay, this is happening. The faster you can communicate that to other people with, you know, whatever. I'm very sorry this is a thing. Um, it's just so much easier for it not to be a big deal at that point. But having to admit, it feels like the biggest deal. Having to admit it is the biggest deal. And this is when we get into that self-defeating. No, I can do it. No, I can do it. I don't have to admit it because it's not true. It's not true.
Rekka (01:15:50):
And it's when you have two hours left that you go, Whoa, God, it's true. And now and now tomorrow is going to come and I won't have this file for the editor and I'm going to have to either keep working on it and maybe I can get it done by midnight on the deadline. Or maybe I can tell them I'm still working on it and I need a couple more days. But that's a scary email to write for some reason. Even though I think most of us deal with reasonable people and I don't know about you, but sometimes I get an email from somebody and says, I'm not going to have that for you for a couple of days. And I go, Oh, thank God I wasn't ready to deal with that.
Miri (01:16:22):
Because we're all having to build our own systems. And any part of that system is -
Rekka (01:16:28):
Is probably also a little overwhelmed.
Miri (01:16:30):
Carbon-based people.
Kaelyn (01:16:33):
Well, speaking of carbon-based people, this one's throat is going like you've been talking for a while.
Rekka (01:16:39):
Yeah. Yeah.
Kaelyn (01:16:40):
So thanks Miri for joining us again.
Miri (01:16:42):
Oh, thanks for letting me talk about boundaries past the boundaries of this timeline.
Miri (01:16:47):
So, um, once again, where can people find you online? Uh, you can find me, hopefully not as frequently as sometimes in the past on twitter@Miribaker or at Miribaker.com, which currently just redirects to my Twitter.
Kaelyn (01:16:59):
We'll link everything in the show notes, you know, if you want to check Miri out, she's like, she's pretty awesome.
Rekka (01:17:04):
Plus the link to that t-shirt. Yes. Oh yeah, let's get the link to the tee shirt if only it were printed in reverse. So when you looked in the mirror, just dragging yourself each time and then you would say, Oh, do I need to reanalyze my boundaries right now?
Kaelyn (01:17:16):
Yup. So, well, um, thanks again everyone for joining us this week. Thank you Miri for joining us. And um, we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
Rekka (01:17:25):
Okay. The conversation ended but it didn't end because after we stopped recording, Kaelyn and Miri and I kept talking about this. In fact, it became the running joke for the rest of Miri's visit that we have to set boundaries. And anytime somebody said, no thank you, we all applauded the use of, uh, healthy boundaries, et cetera. But one thing that we all agreed was worth coming back in and adding a little addendum for this episode on was that these boundaries and healthy use thereof also applies to things you want to do. Um, for instance, you may want to go to every conference, every, you know, throughout the year that you can see your friends at or, um, you may want to, uh, add another project because you're really excited about it. You may want to go participate in a reading. Um, even though you have a deadline coming, you may want to go out with family and friends, you know, things that are pleasant and might be even relaxing if they were to exist in a vacuum.
Rekka (01:18:21):
But because you know, you have to balance all the spinning plates in your life, sometimes you have to say no thank you to positive things as well, um, or figure out how to give up something else if that is something you can or need to prioritize. So anyway, we just wanted to add that because it started to feel as though we were leaning all in toward say no to things that suck, which is definitely true. Definitely say no to things that suck, but also sometimes just recognize when even a lot of fun things might be too many things.
Rekka (01:18:55):
Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter at w M B cast. Same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com forward slash WMB cast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk.