Episodes
Monday Sep 30, 2019
Monday Sep 30, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
This is the final week of Submissions September, for real this time! We’re rounding out the month with a short episode of questions, concerns, and follow ups. We got a few inquires and responses over the course of the month and thought it would be a good idea to wrap up with an episode where we answer them. Thank you so much to everyone that got in touch and we hope that this month-long walk through of the submissions process was helpful. If there is anything you’d like to hear about that we didn’t cover, let us know! We’re always looking for topics for future episodes!
In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and here’s the thing, Kaelyn’s a long-suffering New York Giants fan and she’s been doing this funny-football-comments-in-the-show-notes bit for the entire month and is curious if anyone has read her weekly rants. So, the first three people to DM her the score of Sunday’s game (9/29/2019) against Washington get a free Parvus ebook of their choice.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
00:00 Kaelyn Considine (KC): Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, editing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press.
00:11 Rekka / R J Theodore (RJT): And I'm Rekka, I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore.
00:13 KC: And uh, this isn't really an episode episode.
00:18 RJ: It's a minisode.
00:20 KC: Yeah. It's the questions wrap-up. We did get some questions for Submissions September that we wanted to try to provide answers for.
00:27 RJT: Yep, these came in through Twitter and email and conversations we had in person with people so, it is a great little set of specific questions and we ran through them in, not necessarily the order they came in, but the order they would apply to the process.
00:44 KC: Yeah.
00:44 RJT: So it worked out really nicely as a little set of like quick summary... I mean, you obviously won't get everything you would get by listening to the other six episodes of the month but you know it's a good overview and maybe I dunno like a little refresher before the pop quiz next week.
01:02 KC: Absolutely. And no, it seemed like a good way to kind of round out the month. We kept it short, like we intended to.
01:08 RJT: Yeah, so this one, our "short" episode is the length we always think the episodes are going to be.
01:13 KC: But, well, we had a lot of fun doing Submissions September. We won't be doing anything similar to this any time soon.
01:21 RJT: This was a big, big project.
01:22 KC: This was a lot.
01:22 RJT: I think this encompassed three different recording visits.
01:27 KC: I think so.
01:27 RJT: You know, Kaelyn comes in to visit for the weekend and this weekend, in order to finish them all, she had to stay an extra night, and we are done now.
01:33 KC: It's okay cause I got brunch and mini golf out of it.
01:35 RJT: Okay, yes. So we aren't all work, no play.
01:39 KC: So it all worked out in the end and you know, your cats like me now so that's very exciting to me.
01:45 RJT: Yes.
01:45 KC: Anyway, so thank you so much for joining us for this whole month and we hope you enjoy this last episode of just the rounding out of Submissions September.
02:01 MUSIC
02:14 RJT: Well it's been a month, everybody.
02:17 KC: It has been a month.
02:17 RJT: We said this was gonna be a bi-weekly podcast.
02:24 KC: And then we said we were gonna take a month where we do an episode an every week, so it was gonna be four.
02:31 RJT: Yup, and then we said, "hey look we have a lot of interviews, this is too many for one episode."
02:36 KC: And then we had some questions.
02:39 RJT: So we're back with one bonus, final, "hey while it's still September"
02:43 KC: Yeah.
02:43 RJT: Hol' Up A Minute.
02:45 KC: Yeah, welcome. It's Monday, you have to listen to us. Yeah, we ended up with seven episodes.
02:49 RJT: Yeah, let's not do that again.
02:49 KC: No, G-d no. Please.
02:49 RJT: Cause, at this point of time when we are speaking to you in this recording studio, we haven't edited them yet. So we're not even done.
03:04 KC: Very true, but we did have some questions come up over the course of this. If there are things you're still wondering, things we didn't talk about, you know you can still send us questions, maybe we'll do something else like this.
03:16 RJT: These were all sent to us Direct Message and folks didn't say whether they wanted their names used so we're just going to err on the side of privacy.
03:21 KC: Yeah, just you know. Um, if you do wnat us to say it was your name then
03:26 RJT: Let us know.
03:26 KC: Tweet at us.
03:30 RJT: We'll assign credit where credit was due. And some of these were from a couple different directions.
03:32 KC: Yeah, so. Um, so first question: How perfect does my manuscript have to be before I submit it?
03:38 RJT: Yeah. I mean, ostensibly the agent, if you work with an agent, is probably going to do a couple passes with you. We spoke to Caitlin McDonald a couple weeks ago and she said she's gonna do two passes and that sounds pretty common.
03:55 KC: Yeah, that sounds pretty standard.
03:55 RJT: And then they're going to sub it and send to a publisher and the publisher is definitely not going to leave it alone either. So, knowing your manuscript is going to change, how perfect does it have to be?
04:05 KC: As perfect as you can get it.
04:08 RJT: I mean, should I be worried about copyedits or should I just try to catch what I can on my own?
04:13 KC: I know, from my perspective as the acquisitions editor: I do not expect a copyedited document. That said, I do expect a final document. I do expect you've put time and effort into this.
04:25 RJT: So it looks like the final that you would send to a copyeditor and it's just that you might have an opinion on stuff you think could be better.
04:35 KC: And I think it is a little frustrating, some people think like, "Well why do I need bother with that much of if because they're just going to change everything anyway?" And the answer is: You're trying to make a good impression. Also, it's showing me your work ethic. It's showing me the attention to detail and time you put into things and that this is important to you. It is funny because I get manuscripts submitted to us sometimes that I'm like, "I really feel like this is just a working draft, still, somehow." And that's not good, don't do that.
05:10 RJT: And what about manuscripts you get where like the first fifty pages are super tight, super clean, they've clearly been workshopped a couple times but it doesn't carry through the entire thing?
05:20 KC: I appreciate, to an extent, that they knew that I really need to nail the first fifty pages. And the other thing is I don't expect this to be copyedited. Copyeditors are expensive. I don't expect you to do that especially since we're gonna go in and do work on it anyway so we're just gonna get another copyeditor to work on it.
05:40 RJT: So the plot should hold up but you don't have to get all your commas in the right place or a typo or a repeated word.
05:46 KC: Avoid typos, that's..
05:50 RJT: But I mean, those happen.
05:51 KC: Yeah. I mean, you know, as we always say: Your first couple pages especially, pay very close attention to those.
05:56 RJT: Right, but I'm talking about a three hundred page novel.
05:59 KC: Yeah, if there's A typo in it, it's not the end of the world. There are published novels with typos in them. Not that that's good but it does happen.
06:04 RJT: Right, that's what I'm saying. One person looking at this over and over again is not going to catch everything.
06:11 KC: Exactly. So next question we kinda got, feeding into that...
06:14 RJT: This is sorta into a query letter here.
06:16 KC: Yeah, we're moving into query letter section. What if I don't have any previous publishing credits? Is that a big deal? I mean, no.
06:24 RJT: Every author was a first time author once.
06:24 KC: Yeah. most people don't. A lot of the times when you're querying agents and submitting to open calls of course you don't have any publishing credits. If you did, you'd... I mean, people do leave their agents.
06:40 RJT: Or transition from one to another.
06:40 KC: Or transition and get new ones but I mean, a lot of times you don't have publishing credits, that's why you're looking for an agent.
06:46 RJT: Right, right. And so just to keep in mind you can introduce yourself without you know, puffing this up This isn't like a fake resume or anything like that. If you have an interest or skill related to your manuscript you can mention that but, for the most part, you don't... they don't expect you to say the most impressive thing about yourself. This isn't that party where you have to be that guy. You can just say, like, you know, if there's a gardening aspect in your space opera, just say like, "And I like to garden on the weekends." And you know that's cute. But if the gardening doesn't tie into your manuscript it's not necessary. You can just say.. This would be..you know like, "I am an unpublished author—"
07:35 KC: "I would like to become a published one."
07:37 RJT: Yeah. You're overthinking it, even at this point. Just say, you know, "This is me."
07:42 KC: Yeah, and don't be ashamed of that by any stretch of the imagination. I think there's this intimidation factor where people who are especially trying to submit novels for publication hear about like, people say, "I had this short story published and I had this and this." There are plenty of people who come straight out of the gate to a novel.
08:01 RJT: Right. I did. I'm working stories through submissions process nw, but I had a novel first.
08:11 KC: There's no set linear way to do this. It's. you know, you come into where you come into. There's... it's not... you're not ticking off boxes and then you get to query an agent or submit a manuscript.
08:24 RJT: And I didn't have anything that I could speak to. I was a graphic designer which is cool but it's not pertinent. So I really had very little to say about myself in my query letter, which I read to you during the query week anyway.
08:36 KC: Yes.
08:41 RJT: So go back and listen to it if you're worried about it. But I don't have an MFA and an MFA is not a prerequisite to getting a novel purchased.
08:46 KC: No, G-d no.
08:46 RJT: I don't... I didn't major in English. I took one essay writing class at art school.
KC: Okay, then.
RJT: It was pretty much just to spare the art history teachers a couple of classes of having to go over this every semester. Yeah. Don't stress it. You wrote a book, you know, so be proud of that and you know, like I said, you don't have to inflate it. You don't have to be extra humble. Just, you know, write your query letter.
09:18 So, you've sent in this query, however it needed to be written, and you have checked the publisher's submissions guidelines and you know that thay're gong to tell you to expect a response after such and such number of days they might even invite you to reach out and check on it if it's been this long. Or you see on Twitter, "hey we've gone through our entire submissions pile so you should have heard from us."
09:44 KC: "Thanks for submitting."
09:44 RJT: So, what do you do if you have't heard back at that point, in either case?
09:52 KC: Well I mean, if they say you know... like at Parvus we say ninety days for you know follow up the query with us. Here's the thing, if you haven't heard back from me in 90 days there's a good chance I just haven't gotten through the pile yet. It's funny, we say 90 days because that's just a good amount of time but like we get hundreds and hundreds of these when we open for submissions so depending on what's going I may not start reading them immediately. As they're coming in. I try to stay on top of it but that's just not always possible.
10:28 RJT: I know I've heard that some agents for example, will read the query letters and then divert some of those to like hey check this out soon. So they go through the query letters and get through the rejections just based on the query and then they'll go through like the next round of consideration is to open the document and check it out but that may not happen as fast as they read the letter.
10:53 KC: Yeah, I mean, sometimes I can get through these pretty quickly. Sometimes I can't. If you haven't heard back and they say, "feel free to reach out to us," feel free to reach out to them. The response you're probably going to get back is "Yeah I'm still working through everything."
11:06 RJT: Yeah.
11:08 KC: Don't be rude. Don't...
11:12 RJT: Cause you are still technically submitting. This is still part of your interview.
11:16 KC: Well, Don't be demanding, I guess.
11:19 RJT: That's what I mean, like, be decent, be polite, be professional.
11:19 KC: Be just like, "They I'm just following up."
11:22 RJT: This is an extension of the first submission you sent. It's an extension of the impression you're making upon them. So acting as though you're tapping your foot and crossing your arms and raising one eyebrow? Is not gonna d you any favors in terms of how your query is going to be judged. Because frankly we're all human and you can't separate that from the experience of reading.
11:43 KC: No, And you know, I understand there is a little bit of a power dynamic here that maybe isn't necessarily fair but at the end of the day you are... you're applying to something. You are asking someone to give you their time and consideration and, I don't wanna say they don't owe it to you because it's not that. If you submit
12:04 RJT: If they invited you to submit, especially.
12:06 KC: They do owe you that but it's not... you don't get to demand that they pay attention to you right that second. And along those lines, if you get a rejection back don't write back and ask for notes cause that's another demanding of someone's time.
12:26 RJT: And thats a level. There are times you might get notes and that generally is pretty promising. It means you might have needed less work that other people in the pile.
12:37 KC: It also means that maybe you were under, you were considered. It was you know "we're happy you sent this to us. It had some things that we thought needed attention."
12:49 RJT: And this is one of those cases where it's an investment of your time as a publisher to finish this book and if this book needs more work than you budgeted for...
12:55 KC: Than you're willing to put into it.
12:57 RJT: Yeah, so. so you send back notes and that person is, at least got that feedback for the net time they submitted this manuscript They can consider it. Now, if you give them notes, and I know this is probably case-by-case, what about Revise & Re-query or Revise & Resubmit.
13:20 KC: Generally I will say like listen, you know, here's some notes. I always... I don't... I always feel a little uncomfortable sending notes because it's like, especially if they're unsolicited but generally I think they're appreciated. But I usually send a note that's like, you know, "we really liked this. There are these problems. If you wanna take the suggestion or maybe if you want to work with another editor, please feel free to resubmit with us in the future." And a lot of the times, I'll even say, "Please feel free to resubmit, you can send it right.. directly back to me."
13:55 RJT: Rather than needing to go through the digital system.
13:56 KC: Yeah, the usual process. Because sometimes I'm just like, "Yeah, I'm curious to see what they do with this." And I like it flagged that it's like.. cause, again, I get hundreds of these. And even though a lot of times it is something I'll remember, especially if it's something I sent notes back. You know, you never know. If it gets..
14:18 RJT: If it's three years later or whatever.
14:18 KC: Yeah, if it goes through the regular submissions manager it can absolutely get lost in the shuffle. So yeah I would say just do not be demanding and do not be impatient and you know if you get invited to revise and resubmit absolutely do that.
14:35 RJT: If you get notes back, though, and no invitation to resubmit?
14:36 KC: Do it anyway. I mean. There are some manuscripts that we've had open calls for and every time I get the same manuscript back.
14:45 RJT: Okay.
14:44 KC: That's not necessarily a good thing but you know there's no ... I don't think I've ever read submissions guidelines that are like, "(If you already submitted to us once don't ever do it again."
15:01 RJT: Okay.
15:01 KC: Have you?
15:01 RJT: Well I know magazine you know like they are pretty strict. It's pretty much expected, I don't even know that they come right out and say it, but some of them do, is like, "you have one shot with this story unless we invite you to resubmit."
15:15 KC: Yeah, okay. That's... novels are maybe a little..
15:20 RJT: Maybe a little different. So I can understand when someone's getting hundreds and hundreds of submissions that you don't want to open it up and go, "Oh, this one again?"
15:25 KC: Yeah you don't want the same thing over and over. Um, I mean, that said, I'm sure people do it. Just do it is creating the work of having to reject it. There isn't really a way to blacklist people from an open submission. Um, if you get invited to resubmit you absolutely should resubmit because that means they probably
15:47 RJT: Were very interested.
15:47 KC: Were very interested just did not have, for whatever reason, could not take it.
15:52 RJT: It needs more work on your side, basically, before a publisher's gonna take it on and do the work on their side.
15:57 KC: Yeah.
15:57 RJT: Okay, so what if you do get accepted in an open submissions? You've got an offer from a publisher. Can you take that offer and find an agent with it?
16:08 KC: A lot of publishing houses are going to want you to do that.
16:11 RJT: Okay.
16:14 KC: So if you go back and listen to the second episode of Week Three which was the first of the author interview episodes.
16:18 RJT: That's Episode 15.
16:18 KC: Episode 15. Tyler Hayes is in it and he talks about how he actually got accepted, his manuscript got accepted, and then he had to go find an agent. If you go listen to our Nebulas interview, we talked to Mark Tompkins who is the author of Last Days of Magic and he talks about the same thing that he got a manuscript accepted and they were like, "Okay cool well where's your agent?" and he's like, "I don't have one." They were like, "Here, call this person. Tell them you need an agent." So a lot of publishing houses want you to have an agent. The answer is they don't always want to deal with authors direct one-on-one. Because when you have an agent you have someone that...
17:01 RJT: Knows how this works.
17:03 KC: Yeah, and they know the contracts and they know.. They're also... agents are also very useful for their connections and what they're gonna help with. So yeah, absolutely if you have an offer and you can find an agent that you can talk to quickly about that might be willing to take you on that's absolutely something good to do.
17:27 RJT: Do you need to have a contract? Or is a phone call where they're saying, "Okay, we're gonna send you a contract in a few days" enough?
17:34 KC: I think it really depends. You have to feel that out. You know if the publisher has said "yes we want to move forward with thus."
17:44 RJT: Okay.
17:45 KC: If you already have a contract definitely..
17:46 RJT: Get on that.
17:46 KC: Get on it. If they're sending you a contract, same thing, just query
17:54 RJT: And when you query the agent make sure you say, "This has a pending contract."
17:56 KC: Yeah this..
17:56 RJT: This is easy money for you.
17:58 KC: Yeah. "I have a pending offer." And you know, the agent is going to come in and will, of course want to look at the contract. If you've already signed the contract, that's a whole other...
18:06 RJT: Yeah, the agent's not going to be able to do anything for you and they're not going to be interested because there's nothing for them to do
18:11 KC: Yeah, they can't really...
18:11 RJT: That's... Their portion of income is dependent on what they can do for you in your contract. So if you already signed the contract, they would not be representing you for that book and then therefor this would be okay, the promise of another book? Do you have that book ready? Like what...?
18:31 KC: Yeah the contract...
18:31 RJT: Don't sign the contract first.
18:31 KC: The contract is gonna say in it where to send payment and if it's an agent, what it'll say is, "Rekka Jay, care of" and the agent and the agency. So you know, if you go back and listen to our Money episode [Episode 9] we talk about how if you have an agent, you're not getting a check from the publisher. Your agent is getting the check from the publisher and then the agent is writing you a check.
18:56 RJT: Unless you managed to work out a very special exclusion to that.
18:58 KC: Yeah. So that's not uncommon, that kind of stuff does happen. Like I Said, a lot of publishing houses would rather deal with an agent cause...
19:12 RJT: They're professionals.
19:12 KC: Exactly.
19:11 RJT: And you don't know what the author doesn't know but you have a pretty good idea of what the agent does know.
19:21 KC: Exactly. So yeah, don't be afraid to do that.
19:22 RJT: So if you get a publisher that would retract the offer because you went out to try and protect yourself by getting representation...
19:29 KC: Yeah you probably didn't want to work with that person to begin with.
19:31 RJT: ...You're better off. And I have heard of publishers doing that. Retracting offers based on that.
19:37 KC: Yeah I mean the one scenario in which I would say, "Okay I understand where they're coming from" maybe is if you get, I don't want to say the wrong agent, but an agent who's gonna come in, tear up the tentative deal that you had already, and start asking and demanding a lot more stuff. And then the publisher's gonna go, "This is not worth it for us."
19:59 RJT: Right.
19:59 KC: You know maybe it's a smaller publishing house like Parvus and you've worked out an advance that both sides are comfortable with, you worked out royalty rates, and then the author said, "You know I signed with an agent, I want them to look at it," and they come in and then go, "No, no, no, no, no! You deserve..!" And on the publisher's side we're going, "Look. You know, we're not Random House. We're not Penguin." And maybe your book would not be getting picked up by Random House or Penguin. So we're working on the same level here. So yes there might be some areas where a publishing house retracts an offer but
20:40 RJT: Not usually based on the fact that you went to find an agent in the first place. This is going to be your agent is trying to bowl them over.
20:47 KC: Yeah it might be that or it's because you went and got an agent and then the agent's asking questions like, "hey what about this contract," and they're like, "Nope. Forget it." Then you probably didn't want to work with that publishing house.
20:57 RJT: Yeah. yeah. Because that's why you want an agent is to help you with these legal documents and they know what's reasonable for you to ask for, and a shady publishing house may be hoping that, by going straight to the author, they can grab more rights or something than they would have been able to.
21:15 KC: Exactly.
21:18 RJT: Or write in some nasty clauses about your future works.
21:18 KC: Exactly. So I think that's all of our questions.
21:24 RJT: Yeah, that was it! It was hopefully a nice reprieve at the end of the month.
21:28 KC: It was actually short this time. We always say we're going to keep it short and then we never do.
21:31 RJT: Yeah this one actually did. But I think those questions were pretty straight forward but they were good questions.
21:35 KC: Yeah, good questions.
21:35 RJT: And I know that at least we didn't cover them directly throughout the rest of the month. So, if you have more questions like this please send them on over. You can find us @wmbcast on twitter and instagram. You can find us at Patreon.com/wmbcast and like we said, if you want credit for your questions, say so, because if you sent it to us directly, privately, and not just tweeting at us.
22:01 KC: We assume anonymity.
22:04 RJT: And you know, when you're talking about querying, you feel a little shy about it and like you might get it wrong so you don't wanna leave your name out there for someone to say, "Ha, they didn't know." But no most people don't know when they're getting started so these are good questions.
22:15 KC: So that's officially the end of Submissions September.
22:19 RJT: For real this time.
22:19 KC: Yeah, thanks for sticking with us, everyone. This was fun. I mean..
22:24 RJT Let us know what you got out of it. Let us know what surprises you heard this month. And hopefully this has you excited for this step of the process if you haven't made it there yet.
22:33 KC: We won't be doing seven episodes in a month again any time soon.
22:37 RJT: Ever. Like, ever. I will walk out of this shed.
22:37 KC: So hope you enjoyed this while it lasted.
22:44 RJT: Yeah we're a little tired but I think it was worth it. This was something that, from the very conception of this podcast, Kaelyn was excited to do, so hopefully Kaelyn is satisfied with our...
22:58 KC: I am.
22:59 RJT: Good.
23:00 KC: Are you?
23:00 RJT: I'm satisfied.
23:00 KC: Alright well thanks everyone so much for listening. We're back to our regular schedule after this. There will be an October 8th episode, and then it's back to every two weeks.
23:13 RJT: Yep.
23:15 KC: So thanks again for listening.
23:15 RJT: We'll talk to you then!
Tuesday Sep 24, 2019
Tuesday Sep 24, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
Week Four and the final official episode of Submissions September! We will be back next Monday for one more episode to answer some questions we received. But for today’s episode, we’re talking about the other side of the submissions process. Who is reading these manuscripts? Do they have a process? What are they looking for? Rekka and Kaelyn discuss what is happening on the publisher’s side of this and Kaelyn goes on a few minor tirades.
In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your thoughts on Eli Manning as a future Hall of Famer. It’s a minimum of six years off, but apparently the entirety of anyone associated with the NFL needs to have this discussion right now.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Rekka:00:00 Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:07 And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And this is my episode.
Rekka:00:12 It's all yours. I'll interrupt a couple of times, but you throw things at me right back down.
Kaelyn:00:17 This is my wheelhouse. This is my end of things which we are talking about. Okay. We did all this submission stuff. I've sent my manuscript, what's happening to it? Is it being well taken care of? Is someone feeding it, taking it for walks?
Rekka:00:28 No, it's all trampled through the mud.
Kaelyn:00:31 No, we're very nice to manuscripts and submissions. We take excellent care of them.
Rekka:00:35 Also they're digital.
Kaelyn:00:35 Yeah, we have a little, it's a, it's like a playpen submissions portal. They all go there and play together it's adorable. You should see it. Yes. Anyway, so yeah, we kinda, that's what we talk about. This episode is what's happening on the other end. Um, and what I'm looking for, what I'm looking at, what I'm doing and when I say, I mean general acquisitions process kind of stuff. Um, we do, you know, we do kind of mention obviously everything and everyone is different, but there are some broad strokes that are pretty universal.
Rekka:01:06 Yeah.
Kaelyn:01:06 So, um, you know, this is, this is sort of the end of Submissions September. Um, we've mentioned in the episode we are going to do a questions, follow up episode.
Rekka:01:17 Yeah, we've been collecting questions and so we'll take the ones that we have so far, um, time being what it is. There might be more that follow up later, but these are the ones that we've collected in time to record for this month.
Kaelyn:01:28 God, that whole linear time.
Rekka:01:30 Time can be wobbly.
New Speaker: 01:31 Yes. Um, so yeah. Anyway, hope you enjoy this episode. We hope you enjoyed submissions September.
Rekka:01:37 Yes.
Kaelyn:01:37 It was fun. We enjoyed doing this. Um, I enjoyed doing it.
Rekka:01:41 It was awful because a lot of work.
Kaelyn:01:43 Yeah. It really was.
Rekka:01:45 Between scheduling all the interviews you've heard and uh, and then editing them in different weird ways depending on how we recorded them. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's been a lot of production on our part.
Kaelyn:01:56 I learned a lot about audio files. Like more than -
Rekka:02:00 More than you ever wanted.
Kaelyn:02:01 It's more than I ever thought would be necessary for me to, so we've all grown here. Yeah.
Rekka:02:06 So after this we're taking off and we're going to go mini golfing and we're going to enjoy ourselves more. We have to edit all the episodes you're going to be hearing.
Kaelyn:02:14 So, um, you know, thanks for sticking with us and uh, we hope you enjoyed the episode.
Rekka:02:19 Thanks everyone.
Speaker 4: 02:28 [music]
Kaelyn:02:37 So, last episode Submission September.
Rekka:02:41 It has been a long and winding month.
Kaelyn:02:43 I have not come out of this in one piece. I'm falling apart.
Rekka:02:46 Yes. And that's not because of submissions. Well, actually we don't know.
Kaelyn:02:49 You don't know that.
Rekka:02:50 We have no proof.
Kaelyn:02:53 Okay. Um, yeah. I, when I was on vacation, I broke my toe and as a result of walking funny on it, I have now messed up my lower back. I'm currently sitting propped up with a lot of pillows behind me and trying not to move too much. Um, it's not the most comfortable I've ever been in my life.
Rekka:03:11 And later we're going hiking.
Kaelyn:03:13 We're going to play mini golf.
Rekka:03:14 That's worse because you gotta bend over.
Kaelyn:03:17 Yeah, I can walk,walking's well actually that's not true. I can't really walk with -
Rekka:03:22 You can do a, an imitation of a walk.
Kaelyn:03:24 Yes. It's fine. Rekka is just going to carry me on her back.
Rekka:03:28 Yeah.
Kaelyn:03:28 Yoda-style.
Rekka:03:29 Because my back's in great shape too.
Kaelyn:03:31 Exactly.
Rekka:03:32 So there you go.
Kaelyn:03:33 Perfect.
Rekka:03:33 We've got to plan.
Kaelyn:03:34 Our voices are still working. That's all that matters.
Rekka:03:36 Hey, you know.
Kaelyn:03:37 Actually for you that's touch and go.
Rekka:03:38 Yeah, that's not necessarily true, I need water.
Kaelyn:03:42 Um, so yeah, we're talking today about, um, you know, we spent all of September going over everything, leading up to turning your submission into someone. So here's what's happening on the other side. Now somebody gets those submissions and reads them and has emotional reactions at Parvus that someone is me.
Rekka:04:03 Yes.
Kaelyn:04:04 So, you know, as I said in the beginning of every episode, I'm, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. So, uh, you're not sending your work into a black hole. You're sending it to me. Um, and I'm going to look at it and say, sure, let's move forward with this. Or thank you, but we can't accept this right now. Um, so before we really get into this, there was one thing I wanted to clarify and that was that I was surprised when I started getting into this that I'm actually a little bit of a rare breed. There are not a lot of strictly acquisitions editors, any-
Rekka:04:43 Yeah.
Kaelyn:04:44 Anymore. Yeah. Um, a lot of places now, especially especially in our genre and Scifi and fantasy, um, I'd imagine across most places, um, editors kind of are doing their own acquisition process. They're kind of picking what they want to work on. Um, larger publishing houses will absolutely have more of a system in place just because they have to. Um, but a lot of times editors, um, especially when dealing with agents will kind of pick and choose their own stuff. Now they still typically have to take it to a publisher, to a senior editor, and it still has to go before the committee, so to speak.
Rekka:05:23 Right.
Kaelyn:05:24 They don't get to just say, Yup, this one I'm taking this. Um, they still have to get it, I don't want to say approved -
Rekka:05:30 But kind of, I mean, like it's a group decision, um, because it's for the entire company, you know, the, the book and its sales will benefit the company and it's a production costs will come from the company's coffers. So it's not just an editor can decide on their own in most cases. Now maybe there are editors who just get a budget and they're like, here's your budget, turn it into something for the company.
Kaelyn:05:54 Those editors have have multiple awards.
Rekka:05:56 Yes, exactly.
Kaelyn:05:57 And the sales and marketing team's also gonna have like something to say about it.
Rekka:06:01 Right.
Kaelyn:06:01 But the whole point here is that, um, while there are definitely the acquisitions editors, acquiring editors, whatever you want to call them, absolutely still do exist. Um, especially if you're have having an open submissions period because someone's gotta be in charge of, it's me at Parvus.
Rekka:06:20 Um, so in a way, would you say that an acquisitions editor is more like a project manager these days?
Kaelyn:06:27 Um, I'm not sure project manager is the exact correct analogy, but yes, and similar.
Rekka:06:35 I don't think so, but yeah.
Kaelyn:06:36 Yeah. It's, well, because I really more of a filter. I'm the first one you have to get past, right?
Rekka:06:45 When you delegate from there and you, you make decisions, having seen the broad landscape as a whole.
Kaelyn:06:51 Yeah, it's definitely that. Yeah. And an acquisitions editor will also work very closely with a sales and marketing team to kind of determine like,
Rekka:06:58 Is there a vision?
Kaelyn:06:59 Here's what I think we can do with this book and here's the plan I have for it and here's who we can sell it to, et cetera. How to position it.
Rekka:07:07 Yeah, exactly.
Kaelyn:07:08 So on my end, I'm taking all of that into consideration when I'm looking at these things. So, you know, you submit online, I've got a submissions manager, I've got a portal that I log into and I see everyone's query letters and their submissions and um, and I just dive in and this is very typical. You're going to get into the submissions manager. They're going to give you, um, you know, the steps of how to do all of this. If you go to Parvus's website, we have a video up of, you know, here's how you walk through your submissions process. Um, usually it generates like a number, an ID of some kind, just so you know, you can reference that.
Rekka:07:51 Yeah. I like an order number.
Kaelyn:07:53 Yeah, exactly. I referenced them a lot because I have a notebook that I keep track of all of this stuff in and um, the, this is going to come as a galloping shock to everyone I'm sure, but a lot of the same words get used in titles and stuff. And so I sometimes actually just remember things by their number because you get so many of the same words popping up in titles. I don't want to confuse anything.
Rekka:08:20 In the noun of Noun or something.
Kaelyn:08:22 Yes, exactly The This of The Thing. Yes. Um, so we've talked a lot in previous episodes for submission, September about a lot of do's and don'ts and we'll get to some more of that at the end. But -
Rekka:08:39 But this one isn't so much about what you would be doin, the writer as what Kaelyn is experiencing on the back end in terms of what she receives, what her process is, her thoughts and like the decisions she's making and how she comes to them.
Kaelyn:08:55 And of course I speak for all acquisitions editors.
Rekka:08:58 Absolutely, 100%. Everything you hear is uh, like Ironbound.
Kaelyn:09:03 We are a collective hive mind. I'm communicating with them right now mentally.
Rekka:09:07 That is not true. This is the opposite, uh Kaelyn is an individual and works for one company and other companies may do things differently and contain other individuals who are not part of a hive mind, whatever, Kaelyn would like you to believe about her supernatural abilities.
Kaelyn:09:22 Um, it's true. I'm only part of the only part of the Parvus Hive Mind.
Rekka:09:27 Yeah. So, um, of course what we're saying is that your results may vary with another publisher. Um, that publisher will have their own practices and their own, you know, way of going about this. So, um, this is just to give you some insight, but it is not the end all be all encyclopedia entry on how this do.
Kaelyn:09:47 Now, that said, I will say that some of the things I'm about to say right now, they're pretty universal across the board. One of the things is if I open your submission and you have not followed the submission guidelines, that's probably gotten tossed right away. Um, it's, yeah, we've talked about this a little bit, but it's one of those things that I have hundreds of these.
Rekka:10:08 And you're not going to pick the person that's clearly not going to follow instructions even from the get go when they are supposed to be making their best impression. And can't even follow the instructions you have given and laid out for them.
Kaelyn:10:23 It's harsh to say, but I don't have time for that. I don't mean that to be callous. I don't mean it to be rude. It's a business decision.
Rekka:10:28 It's your first business decision of the query.
Kaelyn:10:30 It's a business decision. But it's also, I mean, I literally don't have the time for this. Um, so if you have done something that, you know, you haven't followed the submissions guidelines, there is a very, very, very good chance, not just me, most anyone interested in acquiring books are just going to go in the garbage. Um, so that's sad. You know, let's say they've got your submission lined up and correct and everything. Um, this is something maybe everyone doesn't want to hear, but I probably have a list of things that I'm interested in.
Rekka:11:05 Right.
Kaelyn:11:06 It's not carved in stone. It's definitely not, you know, like pleasant surprises. Absolutely. I love pleasant surprises. Um, but every time we have an open submissions period, uh, we do put, you know, like Kaelyn is interested in this, Colin is interested in this and we do kind of say like, Hey, you know, these are what we're especially excited to look for. Pleasant surprises absolutely happen. Um, but I am kind of on the lookout for certain things and I, we'll come out and admit this, that there are certain things that I'm kind of like, I can't do anymore of this, or we just don't have a space for urban fantasy right now.
Rekka:11:49 And some of this is going to be your bias, just to be clear, like you're human and if you are sick of certain kind of story, there's probably a good chance that it's not something that the team as a whole is really open to.
Kaelyn:11:55 Yeah. And also it might be, well we just acquired two urban fantasies. I can't do another one right now. We have to change it up, be a little, you know, more diverse in our selections. Um, so that said, you know, I'm going through everything. Um, the Colin method is being applied here.
Rekka:12:24 Before we get to that, can I ask?
Kaelyn:12:26 Sure.
Rekka:12:26 Cause I don't know the answer to this yet. Um, so say you put out a call for military science fiction.
Kaelyn:12:31 Yes.
Rekka:12:32 Is there anything in your system that indicates that that's in a query so you could like sort filter for the military science fiction? So when you log into our submissions manager and um, I would imagine a lot of places do this.
Kaelyn:12:49 You can select which genre you're writing in.
Rekka:12:52 Even down to the sub genre?
Kaelyn:12:53 Oh yeah, well, I mean, we have, you know, for us, we have a lot of different sub genres you can pick from because you know, we only do, well, that's why I said even because it seems like there's a new one every day, so -
Rekka:13:04 I didn't know if it was just, if you've got the basic, um, you know, book code, library codes, you've got custom ones in there.
Kaelyn:13:12 Oh, we've got, yeah, we've got some interesting ones. I sometimes I want to go in there and just add things as a joke to see if anything, anyone picks up on it. Yeah. Um, so we, um, you know, I'm, I'm using the Colin Method, which for those of you who.
Rekka:13:27 Passed that episode.
Kaelyn:13:37 Missed that episode, I know we've run, your first sentence is buying me your first paragraph, your first paragraph's by me, your first page, your first page is buying me your first chapter. Every little bit I read that I like, I'm gonna keep going farther.
Rekka:13:41 And back to the start of that, your query buys, the first sentence buys opening the document.
Kaelyn:13:45 Yes.
Rekka:13:46 And so you do read the queries before you?
Kaelyn:13:48 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and the reason for that is I need to know what I'm getting into when I'm opening the manuscripts to set up an expectation.
Rekka:14:02 But also to like an energy sort of allotment.
New Speaker: 15:09 I am not just purchasing your book. I am purchasing you as a person and a concept and a brand that sounds illegal. I am purchasing your personality.
Rekka:15:21 You are investing in the author. Let's, let's choose some.
Kaelyn:15:26 Okay.
Rekka:15:27 2019.
Kaelyn:15:28 All right.
Rekka:15:29 Terminology.
Kaelyn:15:29 Well I mean we are buying your book but we're buying into you.
Rekka:15:32 Yeah.
Kaelyn:15:34 And that you as an author are important as the brand. But also I need to make sure that you're not posting awful things, awful things. I need to like, you know, I think we will get to this more when I get to that, but that part of this, but I need to know about you. There's no such thing as writing a book in a vacuum.
Rekka:15:59 Right. So let me ask, so you said that sometimes there are slush readers and sometimes it's just you. So if a slush reader turns away a book, do you ever go, oh wait, I want to look at that before we actually turn it away?
Kaelyn:16:23 A lot of times with slush readers, okay. There, the parameters of, you know, them are completely, are different all over the place. Um, I tell them if this seems even a little interesting.
Rekka:16:31 Okay. Yup, Yup.
Kaelyn:16:32 Yeah. Kick it up. Um, a lot of times for slush readers, like the one we most used them for was when we did our anthology because short stories are easier to do and that was very important for anonymous submissions. One of the other reasons for that is I might send it to someone else. Um, I might send it to editors within our company. Um, we have freelance editors that work with us. Sometimes I might send it to them. So that's why I want to make sure there's no information on there because I just want them to get a manuscript that's come from me that I already said this is cool.
Rekka:17:25 Yeah.
Kaelyn:17:27 And circulate it to the other. So that's kind of the next step. If you're, if this is something that I'm very interested in, what I'll do is I'll say like, oh, okay, uh, Ryan Kelley, he likes this kind of stuff. I'm going to send this over to him and see if that's something he would be interested in working on.
Rekka:17:45 Right.
Kaelyn:17:45 Because as the acquisitions editor, I don't get to just you, you're doing this now. Um, editor isn't, you know, Rekka, I'm sure you can attest to this because you've worked with a couple of different editors just at Parvus now they've got to be passionate about the stuff they're working on.
Rekka:18:02 Absolutely. Yeah. I would not want an editor who is only mildly interested in my story or not at all.
Kaelyn:18:10 Yeah. If you're getting assigned things that's well like, okay for copy, edit the final copy, edit fine, get as many eyes on it as possible and someone can just go through and make sure the commas are in the correct place.
Rekka:18:23 But yeah, if I'm working on someone with a developmental edit.
Kaelyn:18:27 Yeah, no, they, they need to be passionate and excited about this. So this is where when I said earlier how editors kind of pick what they want to work on, this is where that comes in. So like, you know, let's say for the sake of round numbers, I started out with a hundred submissions. Maybe 10 of them were interesting enough. We're going to take three books. I will send the ones that I think would work best to the editor, I think would work best with them.
Rekka:18:56 Right.
Kaelyn:18:57 And they'll take a look and decide, okay, well I have room on my calendar for one more book. I want it to be this one. So that sounds like it's the end of the story. But here's the thing, it's not always, and I'm going to stop here because I want to backtrack a bit and say this is assuming an open submissions call and you don't have an agent.
Rekka:19:20 Right. That's important to know.
Kaelyn:19:22 Yes. We should've said that earlier. Yes. So if you have an agent, what's happening is instead of just going through this open submissions call, your agent is typically directly in touch with either like me and acquisitions editor or editors specifically that they work with and know, and this is when I said that, you know, editors a lot of times pick their own things frequently. it's through relationships with agents that they have or things that people send them directly to them.
Rekka:19:50 Yeah. This is why you don't see a lot of open submissions calls at a lot of publishers because the editors have already developed relationships with agents and they're, they're getting their slate filled before they could even consider having an open submissions call.
Kaelyn:20:06 Yeah. And a lot of them, a lot of editors will not take unsolicited manuscripts because they just, they'll be inundated.
Rekka:20:13 Right. It's a lot of work to go through all these.
Kaelyn:20:15 Yeah. So you have an agent that you've worked with before, you trust their, their taste, their um, screening process.
Rekka:20:23 You know, you work well together. You know, that if they have an author in their stable, that chances are it's someone you could work with because you know that that author would have to work with this agent. So it's almost like a, it's an endorsement. Yes. It's a patronage, an endorsement sort of thing that, that they can trust you because they know your agent.
Kaelyn:20:46 So, that's, you know, that's where a lot of editors are frequently getting it. And that's part of the reason, you know, we talked last week was all about agents and stuff and these mythical creatures, Unicorns, why they're so important. And you know, it's, it's hard to say because we do open submission calls a lot and I like that we do them, but having a literary agent is very good. Yeah. And it's, uh, if nothing else, it's a foot in the door. It's like a little badge you get. I've got a literary agent.
Rekka:21:23 Yeah. It's a little more fast track to the front of the line. Yeah. It's, um, it's guaranteeing that there's somebody who's gonna speak for your book, um, more than just your query letter.
Kaelyn:21:34 Right. Um, and I mean with Parvus, we've had every book that is released as of when this is coming out.
Rekka:21:42 Right. You got to be specific.
Kaelyn:21:43 We've gotten through our open submissions call, um, that will change soon. But every single one of our books that we've put out already have come through our open submission call.
Rekka:21:54 And that was pretty intentional on Parvus's part.
Kaelyn:21:56 Yeah. Um, it, I mean, I like it. I like that we do that. Um, I like that we can find books from people that just wanted to write a good book and submitted it. And we were like, yep, we'll publish that.
Rekka:22:09 Which was kind of, I mean, having talked to Colin before in other interviews, that was sort of his entire concept.
Kaelyn:22:14 Yeah.
Rekka:22:14 For wanting to open a publishing house.
Kaelyn:22:16 Exactly.
Rekka:22:17 To find the books that are out there that he knew was out there that are great and written by passionate people who love writing.
Kaelyn:22:23 Yeah, exactly. So, um, so we found a book by a passionate person who loves writing and -
Rekka:22:30 Who is adorable.
Kaelyn:22:31 And is adorable. And they found, we have an editor who's really interested in it. So what happens next?
Rekka:22:39 You tear that book to shreds. We start over.
Kaelyn:22:41 No. Well before that you're probably gonna get a phone call.
Rekka:22:44 Oh yeah. Okay. Sorry. I just remember the painful part. Phone call with lots of fun.
Kaelyn:22:49 Um, you're probably going to get a phone call from me, but then I need to know about you. I need to make sure that if I go to your Twitter feed, it is not full of horrible misogynistic jokes and pictures. I need to make sure that you're not writing about your favorite ways to torture animals. And yeah, I know we like to think that we write books in a vacuum. We don't, I don't care if you've written the greatest thing in the history of literature. If you're a shitty person, we can't publish that and we're not going to and we don't want to. And maybe some you listening are going, well, shouldn't the book just stand on its own merit? It doesn't.
Rekka:23:48 It can't.
Kaelyn:23:49 It can't these days. It can't because it's not, we're not simply purchasing your book. We are investing in you as a person, as a brand, as an author.
Rekka:23:59 And when they invest in an author, that author's name becomes attached to the company.
Kaelyn:24:07 Exactly. And we're small, but even the bigger places, we, no one wants to affiliate themselves with crappy people.
Rekka:24:15 And you see this happening a lot, um, problematic or otherwise in social media where somebody spouts off and suddenly they've lost their contract.
Kaelyn:24:25 Yeah.
Rekka:24:26 And you know, better or worse. I mean, we're not going to comment on different -
Kaelyn:24:28 Yeah. That's uh -
Rekka:24:29 situations. Some go, some go sideways real fast, you know.
Kaelyn:24:33 And that's, that's a whole other thing. But the other part of this is that besides just making sure that, you know, you don't have a secret life, um, you know, with the KKK, I also want to talk to you and get a feel for what I think working with you will be like.
Rekka:24:48 Right.
Kaelyn:24:49 Because if I get on a phone call with you and oh, it's about time you guys called. I was wondering when I was going to hear from you this, this a 90 day turnaround. I mean, I should have been right at the top of your list. I just called -
Rekka:25:07 You just found yourself at the bottom.
Kaelyn:25:11 I just called to say, we hope you're having a good day. Bye. Um, you know, I want to kind of get an idea also for what you'd be willing to do with the book because as Rekka said, tear the book to shreds that they've already got ideas. The thing is, before I call you, I've already talked to your editor, who I've already said, hey, so what do you think you're going to want to work with on this? What do you, you know, what's the scale of the changes and revisions you're going to want them to make? Um, so you're probably wondering, why doesn't the editor call me? They might, it depends. It's just, you know, I'm the acquisitions editor. I'm the one who kind of -
Rekka:25:48 Spearheads this operation.
Kaelyn:25:49 Yeah. And it's just a little more of a streamlined process where, you know, you're going to talk to me first. It's just, just how it goes. Your editor might be on the call with me. Very possible. Um, so once you get past that, then it's, you know, into contract negotiations and I won't go too much into that right now because we're kind of, that's moving out of the submission phase of things. But then that's, I mean that's the end of the story then.
Rekka:26:14 Yeah.
Kaelyn:26:17 Is the contract.
Rekka:26:18 Then you, from the contract. Once that's all complete, it's get to work, you know, you get your revision notes from your editor and you move into the production and then you're done. This is this whole, uh, Submission September thing is behind you. At least for this book.
Kaelyn:26:32 Yeah. So, um, that's, that's kind of like, I mean, it's weird to feel like we've come to a hard stop, but like that -
Rekka:26:40 That's what happens. It goes off your plate at that point, unless you decide to be the editor yourself.
Kaelyn:26:44 You know, it's the submissions process I think in general is, you know, well, how, how do you go through it? Slowly at first and then suddenly all at once.
Rekka:26:54 Right?
Kaelyn:26:55 It's, it's a lot of hurry up and wait.
Rekka:26:57 And then, and then it's everything.
Kaelyn:27:02 Things can progress very quickly.Um, so that's kind of where you end up. Uh, we did, you know, I wrote down some things just to, you know, sort of run through some do's and don'ts about this kind of stuff.
Rekka:27:12 A couple of questions that, you know, pop up in my mind as I'm listening to you talk.
Kaelyn:27:16 Yeah. Um, you know, again, please read the submissions guidelines. I know we talked about this already, but just the fastest way to get your book taken out of consideration is to not do what they ask you to do.
Rekka:27:30 Is to display that you think you are above that process or that you don't know how to read.
Kaelyn:27:37 And it is so easy to just do this. This is not, this isn't a monumental insurmountable task and no one is going to put submissions guidelines up there that are like now once you have killed to the owl, you must address the letter to us in its blood. Yeah.
Rekka:27:55 Although that is a nice additional filter you could use.
Kaelyn:27:58 I mean, um, I don't want people killing owls though.
Rekka:28:01 I was just going to say as to figure out who is willing to kill an owl and you don't want those authors, but that's sort of backwards.
Kaelyn:28:06 Um, I like owls.
Rekka:28:07 Yeah. So like I know having gone through the process of submitting things before that it is nerve wracking to think like, am I doing this right? Are they gonna like me? Do I come off as -
Kaelyn:28:22 Please like me.
Rekka:28:22 Um, do I come off as someone who's, you know, professional, et Cetera. The most professional thing you can do is follow the set of instructions they give you and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to click send on something when you know, like, okay, I have done steps one through five out of five and now I can send to this because I've given them exactly what they asked for. There's nothing left for me to provide here.
Kaelyn:28:47 You actually even then touched on something that I think also is overlooked frequently, which is professionalism. So in my company we publish science fiction and fantasy and there's certainly like a tone and attitude a, it's fun that comes along with it. Absolutely feel free, especially in email correspondence to joke around with me because you will frequently get email responses from me that contain ridiculous things. But part of that is I'll cop to it here and now part of that is a ploy on my end that I'm trying to put the person at ease. Like it's cool, like don't. Um, but that said, and when I was on a Rekka's, um -
Rekka:29:31 Podcast.
Kaelyn:29:31 Previous podcast, Hybrid, Author um, one of the things I pointed out that a lot of people don't think about is your email address. If you have an email address that you've had since like college and what do we call it? SnotMonster27, you know, whatever. Unless your book is about 27 snot monsters, maybe try to come up with one that's like just your name somehow. Um, you know, if you have like some kind of, I won't say ridiculous, but maybe like silly things that are like hold over from your early Reddit days that you know, you still use, it's not a bad idea when you're getting ready to go through this process, one, to have a separate email account to manage all of these things.
Rekka:30:14 Right.
Kaelyn:30:15 But two, also something just a little more.
Rekka:30:18 Grounded? Neutral?
Kaelyn:30:19 Yeah. Neutral's good. Just like maybe just your name or maybe you know, RekkaWritesBooks@gmail. Like, you know that you can still be fun with it and you know, but just something to kind of be aware of is, you know, like I got, I get some things some times and people have stuff in their signature that they don't realize is like things you should well, things you should maybe change before you send this to someone you're hoping to work with professionally.
Rekka:30:47 Gotcha.
Kaelyn:30:48 Um, so just kind of be aware of that and um, all kind of transition this into the next thing, which I think you were touching on, which is emailing and asking questions.
Rekka:31:02 Yeah.
Kaelyn:31:04 Absolutely do it. If you are unsure of something, I get -
Rekka:31:08 I have not seen a submissions page, like the guidelines that don't include an email address for you to ask questions before you submit incorrectly.
Kaelyn:31:15 Exactly. And um, I will say sometimes I do get questions where I'm like, did you read the submissions guidelines? But, um, we had a problem with our submissions portal this time, just something clicked off and wasn't supposed to. And I got a whole bunch of emails and we were like, oh shoot, that's a problem. And we fixed it. And I get right back to those people and say, thank you, we fixed it.
Rekka:31:39 Yeah, go ahead.
Kaelyn:31:40 Now, um, if you have a question about like, you know, listen, I'm not sure this is what you're looking for. I mean, my answer to that is always, I'm not either, send it over. Let's see. You know, I'm never gonna -
Rekka:31:51 It is open submissions.
Kaelyn:31:52 Yeah. So, yeah. Um, but along those lines and going back to the professionalism, don't start your emails off with Yo. Um, I'm -
Rekka:32:04 Kaelyn is from New York. She gets that enough.
Kaelyn:32:05 I am frequently taken aback by the crassness of some of the emails that I get that - take the time and write, you know, dear whoever. And you know, like at Parvus you can just write "Dear Hive Mind," and I mean, yeah, you can still be cute about it, but like light about it. This is to whom it may concern or, you know, I, I even get the ones that are like, "Hi, I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be addressing this to", but you know, just -
Rekka:32:41 You've tried.
Kaelyn:32:42 Yes. Um,
Rekka:32:44 Don't lean far into like, I don't even care who this is addressing. Yo.
Kaelyn:32:47 Um, I get emails that are just like the, hey, what do I do about this? Like take a minute and say hi, I'm so and so. I'm submitting to your open call. I'm having a problem with this. Be Professional, be considerate, be courteous, be polite.
Rekka:33:06 Yeah.
Kaelyn:33:07 Because right off that if you don't think I am mentally, I am not mentally making a note of this person and when I get to their submission, because what did I say before when I talked to you, I want an idea of what it's going to be like to work with you.
Rekka:33:21 Right. So you've already provided your first clue.
Kaelyn:33:25 Everything, every interaction you have with anyone in any professional setting really. But especially if it's something like this, you're, this is all information we're putting away about working with you.
Rekka:33:38 This is like showing up to the job interview and you're ripped up sweat pants that you've been wearing for four days.
Kaelyn:33:43 Yes. Yeah. So just, you know, be cognizant of that kind of stuff that yes, we're a fun organization. We're cool people we like interacting with and this isn't just Parvus, this is most places. Okay. We don't know you.
Rekka:34:01 Yeah.
Kaelyn:34:02 Yet. Not yet. So just be aware of that. And first impression first.
Rekka:34:08 Yeah. There's a reason your mom and your grandma havetalked about that.
Kaelyn:34:11 Yeah. And I know it sounds silly. It's really not. First impressions are very important. Um, so that's, you know, it's kind of the do's and don'ts a little bit, um, with, you know, other stray submissions related things.
Rekka:34:27 Right.
Kaelyn:34:28 Um, one thing and actually Rekka should be the one to talk about. This is uh organizing who you're submitting to and tracking that is very important,
Rekka:34:41 Right. So they're um, depending on how you query, um, well, okay, so acquiring agents, there's a whole system for that.
Kaelyn:34:49 Yes.
Rekka:34:49 And much like the submissions grinder for short fiction submissions, it will kind of keep track of stuff for you. But this is the day and age where you never know what's going to strike on the Internet. You want to have a local copy that's tracing all this stuff. So I recommend if you can download, um, your submissions history, uh, in some way to like a excel file spreadsheet. Do that. But at the very least maintain your own spreadsheet and say, you know who, what story and if you have a tendency to keep working on stories after you submit them, like what revision, um, then what, you know the date, the publisher and if you like, you can copy paste your query letter into that, the next cell and in excel in the spreadsheet. And then you know what you've said to them last time. So the next time you submit you don't send them the exact same words again. And also, um, you know the, the salutation at the beginning, the little opening warmup, text.
Kaelyn:35:55 Make sure you change that for -
Rekka:35:56 Make sure that that is not identical with just the names, you've done, you know, find and replace for each, um, each place you submit it to. And then when they acknowledge it, what, um, what follow up conversations you have and the dates and stuff like that, just keep track of it. Because this is stuff you're going to want to refer back to at some point. And if you, um, you know, if you have questions for them, you can write those questions down and the answers and you can just all keep it in one basic like real simple spreadsheet dashboard where you have everything and you can do tabs at the bottom. So each piece, you know, each manuscript you work on has a different tab and, or each publisher has a different tab.
Kaelyn:36:39 I think we're gonna have Rekka do some kind of like a youtube instructional video on the best way to do,
Rekka:36:46 I don't know if I'm the best one because I don't really have a system I, I queried to Parvus and uh, it was accepted.
Kaelyn:36:52 We're going to have you develop a system and um, and along those lines, one thing that I should've brought up earlier, one of the good things to keep track of is if they say expect a response within this time, if not, feel free to follow up.
Rekka:37:07 Yeah. So we've covered that in the previous one. You can even like add a formula to your spreadsheet that calculates the day for you. Like this day, you know from Column D add 90 days and column E displays the day that you sh- you can follow up if you haven't heard. Here's the thing, cause we can't do math in our heads, apparently not.
Kaelyn:37:27 If you submit January sixth - 15th and they say 90 days, 90 days is not March 15th I know in that's three months in the calendar in your mind, but 90 days is April 15th ish, whatever it is. The way the, actually that is because of February. So -
Rekka:37:45 February makes up for the third one.
Kaelyn:37:47 So get out, like if you don't want to do in the spreadsheet, get out a calendar and count out 90 days because 90 days is not three months.
Rekka:37:59 Yeah.
Kaelyn:38:00 90 days is 90 days.
Rekka:38:02 Right. And you can, if you find counting to 90 difficult because of distractions or whatever, or nerves, just Google. What's the date? 90 days from today,
Kaelyn:38:15 Because there is, I don't know if this is just a pet peeve of mine, but when I get ones that are like, hi, I submitted 90 days ago and I go and look and I go, no you didn't. You submitted 60 days ago, but thanks. And the ones that I, it's amazing. It's always the people that submitted like the first week and it's like you could not have submitted 90 days ago. We were not open for submissions 90 days ago. And then it puts me in the position of I don't want to write the back and make them feel silly. Like I want like I don't want to have to go 'Actually you submitted 60 days. Like I'll talk to you in a month.'.
Rekka:38:48 Yeah.
Kaelyn:38:49 Um, so yeah, that's um, that's kind of the, the end of the submissions process is the contract then. So that's also the end of Submissions September.
Rekka:39:02 Almost.
Kaelyn:39:02 Almost. Cause we have one last uh, one last treat here.
Rekka:39:06 Probably be a quick episode I think.
Kaelyn:39:07 Very quick. We're actually going to try and keep it at, we keep, we always say we're going to and then we never, yeah.
Rekka:39:13 Yeah.
Kaelyn:39:13 We've got, we're gonna do one last episode. We are going to really try to keep it short. It's just we did, we got a few questions and we want to kind of round out Submissions September.
Rekka:39:25 Yes. And thank you to everyone who did send the questions. If you feel like we skipped over your question, we promise you we didn't. Um, but we can cover it in another episode.
Kaelyn:39:34 Yeah. Well, and I mean, who knows, maybe that could turn into an episode.
Rekka:39:38 Yeah. I might end up being an entire episode on So-and-so. I'm, we hear you if you sent them. Thank you. And uh, we will get to your questions. Either you'll hear it in the next episode or we will, uh, talk about it in the future.
Kaelyn:39:51 Yep. So, um, that's the end of the official episodes of Submissions September we will be back, uh, and I guess we're going to do less than a week because we're gonna yeah, we're going to put that up the last day of September.
Rekka:40:04 Just to stick the whole -
Kaelyn:40:05 Just to round it out. Yeah, exactly.
Rekka:40:08 And then we will have-
Kaelyn:40:09 We'll be back to our regular schedule.
Rekka:40:12 Yes.
Kaelyn:40:12 Of every other week.
Rekka:40:13 Yeah.
New Speaker: 40:14 So thank you for sticking with us all September. We know this was a lot of listening to us talk
Rekka:40:19 Hopefully. It was exciting for you because these are the things that people are always wondering but not necessarily finding answers to.
Kaelyn:40:25 Yes. So, um, you know, as always, if you have questions that, you know, after listening to this, you know, send them to us, we'll, we'll still talk about this stuff. It's not like we're never going to talk about submissions ever again.
Rekka:40:38 This is it.
Kaelyn:40:38 This is exactly everything.
Rekka:40:42 Um, so you can find us @WMBcast on Twitter, Instagram, and on Patreon
Kaelyn:40:47 And um, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So we'll, we'll be back in six days now?
Rekka:40:52 Yes.
Kaelyn:40:52 This time with uh, with questions. So thanks everyone and we'll see you in six days.
Speaker 5: 40:58 Thanks.
Thursday Sep 19, 2019
Episode 16 - Agents of Literature Part 3 - An Interview with Agented Authors
Thursday Sep 19, 2019
Thursday Sep 19, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
Week Three of Submissions September and the final episode of Agents Week! For Part Three we got we spoke with three more agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent. This time we’re chatting with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri who share stories, wisdom, and anecdotes about their paths to signing with a Literary Agent. You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below!
In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and everyone, let’s be real, we’re two games into it and the Giants’ season is over. Kaelyn would appreciate your support while she waits for hockey season to start.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
And check out this episode’s interviewees!
- J. Hackwith
Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/
https://www.amandahackwith.com
https://twitter.com/ajhackwith
The Library of the Unwritten https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/
===
Jennifer Mace
Represented by Kurestin Armada https://twitter.com/kurestinarmada of PS Literary https://www.psliterary.com/
https://www.englishmace.com
http://twitter.com/englishmace
https://www.englishmace.com/fiction/
http://betheserpent.podbean.com/
===
Nino Cipri
Represented by DongWon Song http://www.dongwonsong.com/ of HMLA http://www.morhaimliterary.com/
https://ninocipri.com/
https://twitter.com/ninocipri
Homesick: https://www.dzancbooks.org/our-books/homesick
Finna: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250245724
Kaelyn:00:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. And when I say another, it's because this is the third one this week.
Rekka:00:10 And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:13 I think my name is just third episode. No, I am Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor, Parvus Press. Why did we do this?
Rekka:00:21 Hey, you know what? We're going to be so glad when it's done.
Kaelyn:00:24 It is good because these were, these were great interviews. So this is the second episode, um, of interviews with.
Rekka:00:29 Interviews with authors -
Kaelyn:00:29 Interviews with agented authors. So, you know, first episode, if you missed that one, go back and take a listen to that. The, uh, September,
Rekka:00:39 How should we even know?
Kaelyn:00:39 [laughs] What day is it?
Rekka:00:41 Is it September?
Kaelyn:00:42 The September 17th episode.
Rekka:00:43 Which was with Caitlin McDonald, the Agent.
Kaelyn:00:46 Yes.
Rekka:00:47 And then on the 18th, yesterday we spoke with Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes, and Caitlin Starling. And today we are speaking with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri.
Kaelyn:00:57 Yes. So, um, second episode of agented author interviews. Uh, you know, how they got them, what,
Rekka:01:03 Yeah. Rounding out the experiences that we gathered of people who found agents and then those agents are helping them or have helped them find a home for their manuscript.
Kaelyn:01:13 Yeah. And um, some good insights here. Yeah. I think in this set of interviews. So, um, we'll stop talking now because I don't know -
Rekka:01:21 To talk.
Kaelyn:01:23 Words. Um, so everyone, uh, we hope you enjoy and um, so next week will be the last episode of Submissions September and uh, we're going to be doing what is going on, on the other side of things.
Rekka:01:35 Kaelyn's side.
Kaelyn:01:35 My side.
Rekka:01:36 Yes.
Kaelyn:01:36 [laughs evily] You are in my realm now.
Rekka:01:41 Well not now. Next week.
Kaelyn:01:42 Next week. Yeah. Fair. All right. Well thanks everyone so much for listening and bearing with us through all of this. Enjoy the episode.
Music:01:57 [music]
AJ: 02:04 I'm Amanda. I write as AJ Hackworth. I have a contemporary fantasy coming out October 1st with Ace called The Library of the Unwritten, I tend to write about mythical stuff and gods and sarcastic and families and all that good kind of good staff. I also have two Scifi romances out as Ada Harper. Um, they both came out last year and the first one is a Conspiracy of Whispers.
Rekka:02:29 Cool. And you are represented by an agent. Um, you want to say who and tell us, uh, how you found this agent and why you chose them.
AJ: 02:40 Sure. I represented by Caitlin McDonald at the Donald Mass literary agency. I, I found Caitlin via tumbler. That's really what made me, made me reach out with her because she seemed to have a lot of the same interests in likes and fandom interests that I did. I so I thought that she would jive on my writing style and so I reached out to her, um, through the slush pile. Basically I just like queried her and was coming up through the slush. It kind of funny because she had my, full of my book, for 10 months, 11 months. It was a long process. I had actually like had like given up and thrown in the towel and it's never going to happen. And I had pitched the most ridiculous romance I could think of to a Karina Press. And then an offer from them came first, uh, just about the same. It's just about the same time that Caitlin was getting back to me about the full, I'm making an offer. So, uh, it was kind of a weird deal that the book that I queried her with, with not actually the first book that came out, but it's been fantastic.
Rekka:03:44 Awesome. Very cool. Okay. When you interact with your agent versus, um, when you interact directly with the editor, with your publisher, um, how would you describe one versus the other and when do you go through Caitlin and when do you go through your editor?
AJ: 04:02 I tend to go through Cait, went through Caitlin, whenever there's a disagreement, especially if it's one that's a delicate negotiations, delicate to navigate. Um, I like my relationship with the editor should, uh, is, should usually be in the positive and I cc Caitlin on everything. But if there's something that actually needs to be pushed back on or negotiated with, I definitely sometimes let Caitlin trace the language of that just so she has control of that navigation and I can just be the fun one.
Rekka:04:35 She's the bad cop. That was one thing she said. So that's, it's good that you're, um, you're using all the tools you have correctly. It sounds like.
AJ: 04:43 Well, you know that takes, that's something you have to learn too. Cause like when I first signed, when we were going through the first uh romances, I was more hesitant. I didn't want to bug my agent. Um, which is a common thing that new writers feel like, you know, you, it's a, it's a change in relationship. Cause when you're querying, you feel like you're trying to impress them and get them to like you and stuff. But then when you are, have signed with them, your business partners and that sometimes is a switch for a lot of writers that they are too hesitant to contact their agent when things come up. Um, and so it took a few times of Caitlin gently say, I should cc me on this. Let me, let me handle this. Um, before I understood, um, how before you look at her communication style and how to make that a real partnership.
Rekka:05:28 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now. What about before, um, you had the book on contract to a publisher, um, editing, um, pitching, like getting the, the submissions ready. What was the process with your agent in that regard?
AJ: 05:45 Um Caitlin's very nice editorial level. Um, for my, for my tastes, we did line edit, we did developmental edit and then a line edit, um, before we put it on submission. Um, and that was just about the right level for me. I think we got it in a really good place and she had, she, she had her, her touches on enough that I felt like, um, it was strong going out into submission. Um, and then when we'er on submission, you know, it's so important to know your communication style with the mission cause it's a nerve wracking process. And I like, you know, when we went on submission I asked Caitlin at the beginning of it is like, whether it's good news or bad news, I just want to update at least once a month. And it can just be a summary. I don't need the specifics because I wanted those people that the rejection language will stick in your brain forever. And you of course, you forget the good stuff people say. So that worked out really well as soon as she just, you know, gave me a monthly summary of where we were at in the process.
Rekka:06:42 Okay, cool. So did you work together on um, putting the submission package together? Um, in terms of coming up with the language that you use to pitch the book to the editors?
AJ: 06:54 It was pretty hands off. Caitlin came up with all of that. Um, we discussed just basically, um, she gave me a list of which houses she was going to approach in this round. Um, and and kind of the vague genre of how we're pitching this book. Um, you know, like, you know, contemporary, literary, smart commercial, all those different types. So we really had a basic discussion, but Caitlin really ran with it past that point, which is great. [laughs] This whole, you already had to query the book once.
Rekka:07:25 Right. You don't want to do it again.
AJ: 07:26 Well, magic in itself, the whole submission process. So I'm glad to let an expert have the final say of those things.
Rekka:07:33 Okay, great. So it sounds like you feel like you're in good hands.
AJ: Yeah, it's been good.
Rekka:07:38 Awesome. So if you were talking to, uh, an author who was looking for an agent, what are some tips that you would give that author as far as, uh, whatever part you feel like maybe people have misconceptions with before they get into it? Um, either with the querying, with finding the agent, with negotiating, et cetera.
AJ: 08:01 I think querying, um, you just, you gotta be patient, it's a long, long process and um, there's some great guides out there. I think I found, you know, after I signed as agent was the area where there's not as much information and, and resources for people for how this should go and go. I think the biggest advice I would give is to start as you intend to go on, which you know, how you want to communicate and establish that early on with an agent. And if you're wondering whether you should email your agent about something or whether, whether it's okay to email them about something, the answer is yes.
Rekka:08:37 Fantastic. There's that power balance. It must be difficult to say like, okay, now, like that power balance is more like we're partners in this now and the power struggle and that you feel when you're querying doesn't evaporate inside your head.
AJ: 08:56 Yeah. And it was, it was really, it was, it was a, a tough transition, especially for me because we went right from signing her representation and to negotiating a contract for the romances. Um, so we didn't have that like getting to know you build up of, of um, the editorial process. I joke with Caitlin that I knew we, we broke the ice right away when like my second email to her was, uh, talking about fanfic tropes and how my book shouldn't like have any ref- You know, my joke is like when they're in my email included en-preg in the second email, you knew it was a [laughs]
Rekka:09:32 Well that's awesome because I mean, so everyone knows the Caitlin is human now, but she promises us that all agents are, and it does sound like once you get past this strange like, um, professional dance that there is a chance to just like relax and get into the relationship and get to work.
AJ: 09:51 Yeah, and I, and I think also one of the things I've seen with a bunch of my friends uh getting agents as well is that your relationship is going to be unique to that agent if you're not best buddies. And tweeting memes at your agent all day, that's okay too. Like, you know, I have a pretty, I mean Caitlin and I have a great relationship but we just keep it pretty professional. You know, I'm not tweeting her about, you know, whatever the Internet's on about current time. Um, whereas other other agents I know like our, our, like our, our much more, much more of a friendship relationship with their, their clients. And so it just depends on the agent and depends on the author. And there's no wrong way to have a relationship we've had with an agent as long as it's the right way for you,
Rekka:10:36 For both sides to, yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And um, why don't you give us your pitch for The Library.
AJ: 10:44 Sure. The Library of the Unwritten is the story of the Librarian of the Unwritten Wing, which is the library of all the books that were never quite written. All the stories that were never quite told and it happened to be located in hell
Rekka:10:57 Exactly where they go when I failed to write that book. Right?
AJ: 11:02 It can feel that way for the author that it's definitely a fantasy about, um, books and writers and readers and also about regret and what happens when your story fails to start.
Rekka:11:14 Awesome. So everyone get out there and grab a copy. Thank you, Amanda for joining us today. And um, good luck with everything that you're working on.
AJ: 11:24 Thank you very much. It's been great to be here.
Macey:11:29 I'm Jennifer Maca. I go by Macy and I am a fantasy author, short story writer, poet and podcaster based out of the Pacific northwest. Despite my accent.
Kaelyn:11:42 Wait, that's not what everyone sounds like up there?
Macey:11:44 It absolutely is. This is what happens when you move to Seattle. This is the secret. They don't want you to know.
Kaelyn:11:49 It's because of the coffee.
Macey:11:49 And the rain, I feel. I feel like the rain, helps like really get you in character.
Kaelyn:11:55 Gotcha. Well thank you so much for uh, taking some time to talk to us.
Macey:12:01 So I'm represented by Kurestin Armada of PA Literary and I guess I have a somewhat normal journey to getting an agent. You know, I did actually query uh, I didn't have an agent descend from the sky and pluck me from Twitter, but I guess it kind of starts with, I went to a workshop called Viable Paradise in 2016 and that was kinda my first step along the road to trying to become a professional author. Right? I had all of these books that I'd been writing for years, but I didn't really know what to do with them. And so this is a workshop that's taught by a bunch of professional authors and editors. And while I was there, they talked about, you know, the query process and that really helped me get together what I wanted to say about my book. And so I actually decided to go out querying with the book that wasn't the one I brought to Viable Paradise because I had two books in my back pocket. And you know, who doesn't? Umm -
Kaelyn:13:06 It's, it's very true. I,
Macey:13:10 I accidentally did NaNoWriMo every year for eight years running before I decided to try to get published.
Kaelyn:13:17 Wait, how does this one accidentally do NaNoWriMo?
Macey:13:20 I mean, I kind of describe what I was writing. Like back then as I wasn't trying to write books, I was kind of just like textually role-playing.
Kaelyn:13:28 Okay.
Macey:13:29 Just I wanted to have adventures and makeup adventures to go on, you know?
Kaelyn:13:34 Okay, Gotcha. So, okay. So you were actually just consistently doing this and then certain months you were accidentally falling - okay. All right.
Macey:: 13:43 Yeah, yeah.
Kaelyn:13:44 That's, that's wonderful. I love it.
Macey:13:47 I decided that I was going to start querying in sort of March, 2017 and I had won in an auction, a query critique with someone who used to be an agent. Yeah. It was super great. It was a Amy Boggs and she did really great work for me. But while I was waiting to hear back from her, it was actually Pit Mad. The Twitter contest.
Kaelyn:14:09 Yes. Yes. I really love PitMad. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Macey:14:14 I have so many friends who got their agents that way or at least got one of their offers that way. PitMad is a Twitter like pitch contest where you tweet a very short summary of your book and kind of some hashtags about what genre it is an agents can go through and like the tweets that they want to hear more about.
Kaelyn:14:34 Yeah. So it's just, yeah, it's great because it's, it's kind of, I always think of maybe a little bit of a more low pressure situation. It's kind of like, it's like a market almost where it's just like, Hey, I'm here. I got this thing.
Macey:14:46 Right. Exactly. And, uh, one of my first was actually from Kursten.
Kaelyn:14:53 Oh, okay.
Macey:14:54 And she'd actually already been on my list of agents to query because I am an over researcher. And so I had a very detailed list of agents
Kaelyn:15:03 Listen, as an acquisitions editor, I appreciate the over researchers. I love hearing like, Hey, I looked you guys up online and I saw you're interested in this. And I'm like, yes, yes. Somebody who who's paying attention, you know?
Macey:15:15 And one of the things that I did end up doing, I queried 12 different agents after Kurestin had asked for my manuscript. Um, because you, you keep trying, right? You never know. These things take time. And every one of them I would look through their manuscript wishlist or look through their profile on their agency and make sure to tweak either, you know, which comp titles did I pick or what parts of my book did I highlight? Not In the plot pitch section, but in the like little blurbs section below that in your query letter. And that's where you can kind of do really subtle, um, personalizations
Kaelyn:15:51 I don't know if it helped, but it sounds like it did. And if nothing else, it sounds like it didn't hurt.
Macey:15:58 Right. So that was in March, Kurestin asked for the first 50 pages from PitMad and then a month later she asked for the full manuscript. And then I think in late July it was, she reached out and said, you know, let's talk, which is the email you are waiting for. And so we had a really great conversation and I followed up with all of the other agents who had had my full and I decided that no, Kurestin is really the one for me.
Kaelyn:16:26 So what made you think that Kurestin was really the one for you? This is another thing that we're seeing when we're talking to everyone that they're like, and I just knew I -
Macey:16:37 I'm a very analytical person. Um, so I can probably break it down.
Kaelyn:16:42 Um, which by the way, you're going to see, you're one of the only authors I know is like, I have some statistics on this. I've given a lot of thought. There's a spreadsheet with a pivot table. And if you look at the corresponding data here.
Macey:16:57 Yeah, no like seriously, um, I have so many spreadsheets with so many like cell formulas. I have an entire automated poetry tracking spreadsheet that moves things in and out of the available to sub column based on where they're submitted to and where they're not.
Kaelyn:17:13 That's amazing. And I love it as a, as a big fan of excel myself. That is, Yup, that's phenomenal.
Macey:17:21 But um for Kurestin, so one of the things for me, I sent out a total of 12 queries over six months and that's a little bit of a low number for some people. I was being very specific when I was researching about who I wanted to query and I was only querying people who represented fantasy and YA and both adult and why a fantasy and who specifically mentioned LGBTQ or queer or gay somewhere in their profile or their manuscript wishlist and that plus, you know, targeting agencies that had a reputation for selling books kind of cut my choices down a lot. But it meant that I was already kind of confident. So I had a fairly short list of agents and so all of them would be really great choices. But for me, Kurestin had a lot of really great editorial things to say about the particular book that I'd sent to her and really understood what I, where it was going. And we also had a conversation about like longer career plans. Did we want to be in this as business partners for the long term because it's not just about will they sign this one book, but do they want to be your career partner?
Kaelyn:18:30 Right. Yeah. And that's, that's really important. And I think that's something that not everyone thinks about going into this is this is a business partner. This is a business relationship. And like you both have to be on the same page about what you're expecting out of it.
Macey:18:45 Absolutely. And especially since the project that she signed me for, which was a queer, silky, YA novel, it didn't sell. And so now we're moving onto the next project, which I'm super excited about. But like I asked her on the call, what do we do if it doesn't sell? And she says, you know, we keep working and we try the next thing together. And so that was really great to find or have knowledge of an advance and then not be so scared that I was going to disappoint her.
Kaelyn:19:14 Do you actually, I just kind of brought up an interesting, uh, the angle that I think author, you know, authors, you guys are so in your own head.
Macey:19:23 Yup.
Kaelyn:19:23 So some of the most lovely but some of the most anxious people.
Macey:19:30 You are not wrong.
Kaelyn:19:32 I have ever met, and um, one of the things that you know is the I the self rejection and I the the not good enough. And um, so yeah, disappointing your agent. That's a whole nother level of scary now.
Macey:19:46 Isn't it?
Kaelyn:19:48 Sp how'd you work through that? Where you've said like?
Macey:19:51 Well, so, well one of the things that really great being with Kurestin is we built this kind of community amongst all of her clients called Kurestin's Armada because her last name is Amato and we are dweebs fantastic. And so I have this community of really supportive, amazing fellow clients and we have a little Alack together. And you know, once or twice a week, one of us will go in and be like, I fucked up. She's gonna hate me. And then we're like literally never going to happen. The rest of us know that Kurestin will never hate you, will never hate any of us and we'll fix it. Kurestin still not be mad. You should talk to her and she will help you. And just having someone else who actually knows her be like, no, no, it's fine. Really fix it. Kurestin fixes everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm uh, she, she has done nothing to deserve being saddled with us.
Kaelyn:20:57 Well, it sounds like a lovely supportive community and an army nay an armada and the rest, as they say is history. You guys are still working on upcoming projects and you know, that's, that's great. Uh, you know, the ongoing relationship with an agent is so important.
Macey:21:20 Right.
Kaelyn:21:20 And I think a lot of people when they sign with one are just so excited right off the bat to have their literary agent. It's like, oh, right, I'm going to be with this person for a while. Probably.
Macey:21:30 I think it's really hard to get past that initial kind of gut reaction that this is just a stamp of approval. You know, you have gained this status.
Kaelyn:21:40 Yeah, it is. It's like, you know, you've completed this quest, here is your -
Macey:21:46 Tada.
Kaelyn:21:46 Yeah. Um, here is your agent badge to add to your, your book. Um, it's, it's Mewtwo at the end of Pokemon and, but no, because then it's like no, but then you actually have Mewtwo.
Macey:22:00 Yeah. You've got to have a relationship with this person who is a human with styles of working with opinions and you need to understand that and not just jump at the first opportunity because it could be a bad one.
Kaelyn:22:17 You know, that's so hard. If you're really wanting to get an agent to have to walk away from something and there's no good answer to it, you just kind of have to be aware is really, I think the only way to approach that.
Macey:22:34 And I think for me, one of the things that I didn't realize at the time and so kind of lucked into, um, is we were talking a little earlier about how inside our heads authors get and how anxious and I think that in order to stick it out as a writer, you really need to get to know yourself and understand the things that make you more anxious and the things that sues you. And one of the things that's super important is that the communication style of your agent works for you, not against you. I have friends who have, uh, agents that they really, really love, who don't always answer emails and have to be poked with followup things to answer the email. And I'm like, it's great that that works for you. I would have a panic attack, but I would just need curled up in a ball. Like they hate me now
Kaelyn:23:27 They're figuring out how to drop contract all together. This is it.
Macey:23:34 And that's fine. It's, um, there is no one perfect agent. They're puzzle pieces. Right.
Kaelyn:23:41 That's, that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. And, um, you know, agents that I know and I talked to. I know even just like in my capacity as an editor, I always kind of go to the author and go, what works best for you? If you want to text me questions, that's, that's fine. If you prefer to have like, you know, regular scheduled meetings where we talk about that all at once and that's the only time you hear from me, that's, that's great too. Like I can be flexible. So let me know what works for you because if you're unhappy it's not, this isn't going to work well for anybody. Right. Um, you know, I, the last thing I want to do is be a source of anxiety in your life, right? Yeah, exactly.
Macey:24:26 Righ, I have enough of those.
Kaelyn:24:27 Exactly. So tell us something, either you wish you had known, you wish other people knew, something you're surprised by about either the process or once you have an agent.
Macey:24:37 Hmm. I mean, I think the big one is the communication styles. I have seen agent breakups that have been in large part caused or worsened by that by just a mismatch and just how important it is to understand your own needs before you try to make the sort of commitment. I mean it's not a marriage, but it's a longterm partnership contract. You know what I mean?
Kaelyn:25:03 In some cases it's harder to get out of than a marriage.
Macey:25:07 Yeah. I mean things get really tangled up once you've sold your money will be coming through that agent forever for that book. Yep. Um, it doesn't have to go away.
Kaelyn:25:16 You know what, that's a good point that, uh, I think maybe again, something you don't think about. If you signed a contract for selling your book through an agent and then you and that agent go there, set your separate ways, your money still goes through that agent. Yeah. Does forever. Yup. Because even though you're no longer working with that person, they are technically still your business partner for that particular deal. Yeah.
Macey:25:42 They are 15% or whatever their fee is.
Kaelyn:25:46 Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a very good thing to mention. Um, communication style. Yeah. Is very, very important for so many people. And again, I think like you just, when you get the call and you're like, oh my gosh, somebody wants me. Um,
Macey:26:04 And I think the other thing is when you're getting those calls and making your decisions, you are setting a pattern for yourself in how you work with that person. And you need to think about setting up a pattern that's going to keep working for you. You need to not be scared to email your agent, right? And that can start early, you know? Um, I pester my agent on Twitter sometimes and gently troll her by suggesting I'm going to write a new book where the entire plot is one Flovence and the Machine's song.
Kaelyn:26:37 Um, I mean, you're going to do that though, right?
Macey:26:40 Maybe. But then she's like, Macy, that's not what plot means. I'm like, I, I'll fix it later.
Kaelyn:26:45 You have some stuff you have to tell us about coming up with you and your life. You're headed to Ireland.
Macey:26:52 Yes. My podcast is a finalist for Best Fan Cast at the Hugo's Be The Serpent. And so that's exciting and scary and awesome.
Kaelyn:27:01 That's amazing and wonderful and just the greatest thing.
Macey:27:05 Yeah, I'm honestly like we, you were completely gobsmacked and amazed just to be on the list and I'm so happy with how many new people have been brought in just to hear a few episodes of the podcast and hopefully stick with us cause I'm really fond of what we do.
Kaelyn:27:21 Yeah. So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about like what the podcast is?
Macey:27:24 Sure.
Kaelyn:27:25 Why it's so awesome.
Macey:27:27 It's called Be The Serpent and it is a podcast where three redheaded fantasy authors dissect tropes and patterns and themes in media, in literature, and in fan fiction.
Kaelyn:27:40 Do you want to hear three people that just genuinely love and enjoy each other's company.
Macey:27:46 And make a lot of dick jokes together.
Kaelyn:27:48 And that absolutely that. Come for the friendship - .
Macey:27:55 And there's one other thing that's coming up. Myself, Janeen Southard and Danielle Wexler are putting together a Kickstarter, which hopefully should be out in October sometime to fund an anthology of queer ff stories about swords, women and their princess lieges.
Kaelyn:28:14 It's going to be amazing. I'm so excited when it was funny because of Rekka had mentioned like, oh, and you have to make sure to remind Macy about the Kickstarter. And so I was like, and hey, tell me about this Kickstarter. Like, oh well it's a ways off still, but here's what it is. And I was like, this is going to be awesome.
Macey:28:33 It's going to be so cool. We have so much awesome artwork lined up for people as rewards and stretch goals. And one of our first stretch goals is to hopefully open slush so we can have open call and lots of people can send us their amazing weapons sapphic stories and I can't wait to read all of them
Kaelyn:28:54 It's going to be fantastic. A project doesn't, doesn't have a title yet.
Macey:28:58 Nope, but we've got some really cool people attached. Um, like Alliette Bardard, Kelly Robson, JY Yang.
Kaelyn:29:04 Oh, awesome. That's, that's so great. So, um, yeah, where the Kickstarter is not up yet. There isn't a title yet, but when there is, we'll be sure to put in the show notes and uh, you know, hopefully, you know, you'll have something, you know, we can have put out on Twitter to the masses because that just, it sounds like it's going to be amazing. So, um, okay, well thank you so much for taking the time. Talk to us. Where can people find you?
Macey:29:28 I have a website which is EnglishMace.com and I'm on Twitter @EnglishMace and the podcast is Be The Serpent on Podbean, on iTunes, on Google play or wherever you get podcasts. Thank you so much for bringing me.
Nino: 29:43 I'm Nino Cipri. Um, I'm a queer and Trans Writer. I've written all kinds of different things, mostly focusing on fiction. Um, I have written screenplays, essays, um, so many angry emails, so many, uh, I have two books that are coming out in the next year. Um, my first collection of short stories is coming out in October. It's called homesick. I'm very excited about that. And then in February, I have haven't developed coming out with Tor.com that's called Finna. I write in a bunch of different genres. The like kind of main main through line is that a lot of my stories have like, they're kind of funny. They have a lot of feelings and they're pretty queer. Um, but I've written like horror, I've written science fiction, I've written like fantasy. I actually wrote a story that's like almost entirely like non genre. There's no spec- the only speculative is that there's like 3 million old or 3 million year old fossils of like intelligent weasels and that's it.
Rekka:30:47 That's all you need.
Nino: 30:48 That's all I needed.
Rekka:30:50 Okay. So with that list of, um, of writing styles and subject matter and genre, um, who was in charge of wrangling your writing career?
Nino: 30:59 Uh, I like that wrangling. Um, I am represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Agency.
Rekka:31:06 And how did you come to choose DongWon? So I actually had kind of a weird journey towards that. I wasn't planning on getting an agent until I had a novel finished, um, which I didn't actually. Um, but in sometime early in the fall, I decided kind of on a whim to enter a contest, uh, like, um, uh, what was it? It was like a short story collection contest with a small press called Dezink. Um, and I had no, like thought that I would win it and then I did and I was shocked and like appalled and I was like, what do you need?
Nino: 31:40 Um, but then I had a book deal and then I needed an agent. Um, so I turned as so many millennials do to my friends. Um, and I called a bunch of different people that I knew that all had different agents that I was like, I had been kind of eyeballing them for like, okay, when I start going out and query, I'm going to, I'm going to contact these people. Um, but the fact that I had a book deal like in hand and I needed to sign a contract at some point very soon or reject it, um, kind of sped the process up a lot. So I think I ended up, I talked to a bunch of different friends. I came up with a list of I think like four people who all represented like other writers that I knew pretty well. Um, I asked those friends a lot of questions about like, what the like relationship was like, kind of like exactly like what you're doing.
Nino: 32:31 Um, and then ask those friends if they would be willing to, you know, with their agent's permission, like write me a letter of introduction. Um, and I think three of the people, like three of the agents were like, yeah, sure, just like have them email me. Um, and I, one was one of them. I talked to JY Young, um, who is fabulous and awesome and I don't, I don't really know their faces right now because I'm sure everybody knows.
Rekka:32:59 Yeah.
Nino: 32:59 So it actually ended up coming down to, cause I was talking with a couple of other agents, um, I had to, I got two offers and then ended up going with DongWon. Um, and then almost immediately after like got another book deals. So I feel like I kind of like prove my worth, like, technically?
Rekka:33:15 Well no regrets. Right?
Nino: 33:18 Yeah.
Rekka:33:20 So, um, that's an interesting way to come about having an agent is having the contract first. Um, yeah, which is funny because we think about like the, the power dynamic between the author who is querying and the agent who must, you know, judge and, and accept or, or you know, there's several stages of acceptance with the agent and um, it feels like you kind of get to skip ahead in line a little bit because like, um, not only do you have a book deal, but you also have a little bit of a time pressure that you can leverage to say like, Hey, um, there's a bit of a of a time crunch on this. Could you just let me know real quick? So did, um, so normally when an agent replies to a query, they are requesting a full or a partial or, or some, um, step forward from whatever has been queried. So what were you querying with and what was the next step from there?
Nino: 34:15 Like what I sent to DongWon, like the other agents that I was talking to, I sent them like the manuscript for the, um, for the short story collection. Okay. And just be like, this is what is getting published. I think I sent them the contract that was on offer as well. Um, and then I also sent them like, I think the first 10 pages of the novel in progress that I had, which was a young adult horror novel. Um, and it was just like, this is not finished. Just so you know, like just when I tried to be like very, very transparent with that. Like, here's what I've got, here's the first chapter of it, or like the first half of the first chapter. Um, so you can get like an idea of like what I'm, what I'm working on next. Okay. And then I am working on something.
Rekka:34:59 And so the contract was an offer for that future novel? Is that what it was or is it the contract for the short story?
Nino: 35:05 The contract was for the short story.
Rekka:35:06 Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So now you have an agent, you already have a contract, you've already sold a short story. Um, so the agent and you, I'm sorry DongWon and you began to work on that novel together. Is that what the next step is?
Nino: 35:22 I should mentioned that all of this was happening when I was in my last year of an MFA program. Yeah. This was, it was like the last six months of it.
Rekka:35:30 Okay.
Nino: 35:32 So there was like a bunch of different things going on. Um, so on the heels of this offer for the short story collection, um, the novella that was in there was originally in that short story collection. Um, I had also submitted to Tor and Tor.com like novella submission window.
Rekka:35:49 Right.
Nino: 35:49 Um, and which was like, I double check to make sure that I could do simultaneous submissions and I did. Um, but the thing that people say might happen but never ever will actually happen, happened to me where like I had the offer and I had withdrawn it, um, from Tor immediately. And then like Carl Anglay was just like, I want that.
Nino: 36:14 Yeah. So he ended up calling DongWon, DongWon called me. We both called my publisher at the, at Dezink. Just be like, um, so this awkward thing is happening. Yeah. Um, so that was the next thing we actually started working on was something else that like was already the kind of like fell into our lap. Um, which was really nice. And so now, um, like all of that had to be kind of like taken care of. I edited, finished up. Um, so now I'm trying to finish up like revisions on my novel. Um, I finished the first draft. I think this was also my like masters thesis. So I finished the first draft sometime in April I think, and then sends it on to him and like we made a revision plan and yeah, that's what we're working on now.
Rekka:37:01 Okay. Alright. So the novels that you have, the books, um, I didn't catch the length that you have coming out in the future. Are these different?
Nino: 37:11 Yeah, the short story collection, one novella. And I'm trying to work on a novel and like also there's like a screenplay that's like way over there that I think I was just going to be like, can you just make it fiction?
Rekka:37:23 So, um, how is working with DongWon on your novel versus working on the contracts and all the business like communications.
Nino: 37:32 So with the other two manuscripts, he was fairly hands off. Um, when we were talking about like, uh, trying to like maneuver one Novella into Tor's hands and then like another novella to this to, to Dezank. Um, he read the like replacement novella cause I was like, you know, this is a pretty rough draft. I didn't, you know, it needs another couple of revisions for sure. Do you want to read it and let me know what you think of it? Like here's my thoughts about it. Um, so he gave me like, he was mostly just like, yeah, I think I agree with basically everything that you, you know, all of your instincts on what through revise are good in my opinion. Um, but he also knew that like, uh, the editor at design would have like a lot more, um, specific feedback.
Nino: 38:19 So he was like, here's like the kind of like big picture stuff that I think too you need to work on. Um, the novella, like, because it was already thought, like he was just like, you know, didn't really have any, anything to really say about that one I don't think cause you knew like Carl would be Carl Anglered at Tor would have, you know, his own feedback that he would want implemented. Um, with the novel. He read it and he like, we met for drinks and he was like, okay, we've got like basically one of four ways that you can revise this. Like, and was really good at just trying to figure out first like, what was my vision of this book? Like what did I actually think this was about? And ones that I want it to be. Um, you know, he's like, is this an adult horror novel? Is this young adult or is this about trauma? Um, and it was like we figured out there's like, we like what it was and then how to get it closer to that.
Rekka:39:11 Okay, great. So that was all over drinks. You just like hashed it out in person?
Nino: 39:15 Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I, and he said that because he said he wanted to do that because he could tell like there was different directions that it could be, it could go, um, like, and that is easier to figure out in person rather than like over email. Sure. And you don't really appreciate cause yeah, yeah. Email him that.
Rekka:39:35 Well plus the back and forth, the time lag and then trying to phrase things correctly without the context of facial expression and volume and enthusiasm is, is different. Okay.
Nino: 39:47 When I first signed with him, I was living in Kansas. I'm attempting to move to New York. I have, I'm trying to find a job here.
Rekka:39:54 Oh, okay.
Nino: 39:55 - permanently, but yeah. Um, even before my partner Nibs lives here, so I was here pretty regularly, like every, I've maybe every other month.
Rekka:40:04 Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't out of your way. It wasn't like come to this expensive conference and then we'll meet and have this, have this meeting. So that's good. Awesome. How often would you say you check in with DongWon?
Nino: 40:17 Hmm. He's good at like telling me the things that I need to know. But he also, I think respects the fact that I'm like, you know, we're both very busy people. I'm trying to find a job. He has a bunch of, he's got like several other clients and travels a lot. Yeah. Um, we check in like fairly regularly. I would say like maybe once a month, twice a month, something like that. And he'll send me updates on things like, you know, oh, there was film interest in this thing. Um, I'm just going to let you know. And also here's what you should maybe expect out of that. Which of course was not much, but it's nice. Consider it a complement.
Rekka:40:54 Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So if someone you knew was in your position where you were after you won this contest or, um, in the position of somebody who hadn't won anything for, um, their writing yet, but was looking for an agent to represent their work, would you have any tips for that person, what they could expect or what, what you would recommend they do?
Nino: 41:15 So in this, I would say like definitely if you have a community like if you know other writers like talk to them about their agents, talk to them about, um, like what are the reasons like that I signed with them. Like what were their expectations going in versus what, um, you, they've learned since then. Like what the reality actually is. Um, and like I and I, I actually have like talked to some people like who are going out, like starting to query it and I'm just like, you should absolutely do what I did. Absolutely. Get your friends for at you like introduction.
Rekka:41:49 Yeah.
Nino: 41:50 Your friends are willing to and their agents are okay with it. Like right there. Right. Get them to write you introductions. Like, I feel like anything that can kind of like put you a little bit ahead is helpful. Um, and I don't think it's like breaking the rules at least as far as I know. Maybe there are rules, but like, like nobody told me that when I was starting.
Rekka:42:10 So, so your tip is, um, no, no rules and just go forward.
Nino: 42:15 Well, and I think too, like agents, especially ones that are trying to find like build their client base are really good at like trying to make themselves accessible in various ways with DongWon, like I know that he's really active and like going to cons and like, um, talking to new writers and doing all of these things. So if that opportunity presents itself to like talk to an agent, then yeah, absolutely. Do that. Like go to go to a conference or a convention if that's something that's available to you.
Rekka:42:43 Awesome. All right, cool. So community basically is, is the center of the universe for making this happen?
Nino: 42:49 That is absolutely, yeah. That's like the, all the advice I ever have about writing comes down to just like just to build, build better in larger communities.
Rekka:42:57 Awesome.
Nino: 42:58 Yeah. Hunger communities.
Rekka:42:59 Yes. 100%. All right. So um, you'll give us the names of the two books before. Just remind us before we let you go.
Nino: 43:08 Okay. Yeah, so in October the my short story collection Homesick is going to be released from Dzanc Books. You can preorder it now. Yes, you can absolutely preorder it now. Um, and then Finna, which is a novella is going to be up from tour.com in February.
Rekka:43:25 Okay, great. And we will include links to that in our show notes and thank you so much for your time and we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. Cause like you said, learning from your friends, learning from others in the writing community is, is like such a great resource.
Nino: 43:38 It is. It is. Oh God. Yeah. I would not be anywhere without my friends.
Rekka:43:42 Absolutely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.
Nino: 43:46 Thanks you too.
Rekka:44:04 Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.
Wednesday Sep 18, 2019
Episode 15 - Agents of Literature Part 2 - An Interview with Agented Authors
Wednesday Sep 18, 2019
Wednesday Sep 18, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
Week Three of Submissions September and we’re on part two of Agents Week! For this episode we got to talk to three agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent. Tyler Hayes, Sam Hawke, and Caitlin Starling were all kind enough to tell us their stories, share their experiences, and even offer some insight and wisdom. You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below!
In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast! We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and well, never mind about the football-related stress relief suggestions, Daniel Jones it is.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
And check out this episode’s interviewees!
Tyler Hayes- 00:01:28 - 00:15:34
Represented by Lisa Abellera of Kimberley Cameron & Associates http://www.kimberleycameron.com/lisa-abellera.php
https://tyler-hayes.com/
https://twitter.com/the_real_tyler
The Imaginary Corpse https://www.angryrobotbooks.com/shop/fantasy/the-imaginary-corpse/
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Sam Hawke- 00:15:35 - 00:25:42
Represented by Julie Crisp of Julie Crisp Literary Agency http://www.juliecrisp.co.uk/
https://samhawkewrites.com/
https://twitter.com/samhawkewrites
City of Lies: https://samhawkewrites.com/books/buy-sams-books/
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Caitlin Starling- 00:25:43 - 00:40:36
Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/
https://www.caitlinstarling.com/
https://twitter.com/see_starling
The Luminous Dead https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062846907/the-luminous-dead/
Rekka:00:01 Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I am Rekka and I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:10 And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.
Rekka:00:14 So today is the first of our two episodes where we talk to authors about their experience with their agents, getting their agent and working with them.
Kaelyn:00:23 Yeah. And our previous episode we talked to Caitlin McDonald who is an agent, but we wanted to talk to some authors that have agents because hearing an agent is one thing. Hearing an author who has done this is another.
Rekka:00:37 So we got a bunch of them.
Kaelyn:00:39 Yeah. And um, you're, you'll hear in this, uh, this episode, these three authors all kind of have different paths to this. There really isn't like the standard story of how you got there. Um, we talked to Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes and Caitlin Starling.
Rekka:00:54 Cause they're individual interviews, this episode goes a tiny bit long.
Kaelyn:00:57 A bit long.
Rekka:00:57 So we'll, we'll make room for the other episodes you've gotta listen to this week and we hope that this week on agents is serving you well and getting you excited.
Kaelyn:01:07 So thanks everyone. Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2: 01:13 [music]
Tyler: 01:28 My name is Tyler Hayes. Uh, I've been, I've been writing for about 25 years and writing for money for 16 of that. Um, and my, my debut novel, the Imaginary Corpse is coming out from Angry Robot on September 10th. So I'm repped by Lisa Avalara at Kimberly Cameron and Associates. They're up here in northern California near me. So my story is a little bit backwards from typical, um, in that I actually had the offer on the book before I had an agent. Um, I had been following the kind of normal path of query, partial request, full request, reject, reject, reject, reject. Um, so I was piling up rejections, uh, on this book and they were all those like, you're almost there. Types of rejections. Like it was a lot of, I loved this, but I don't know where I'd put it. And so I don't want to offer to represent it when I'm not confident to where I'd place it.
Kaelyn:02:27 Okay. As far as rejections go better than others.
Tyler: 02:32 Yes, indeed. And I got of course a few, I formed out a few places, but the, the ones that were personalized, we're all like, God, I wish I knew where to put this, but I'm sorry.
Kaelyn:02:42 Yeah.
Tyler: 02:43 Um, so midway through that, uh, I got the notice for through my writing community, um, that Angry Robot books was doing their open door period, which they do once a year. Um, and I thought, well, worst case I'll be exactly where I am now if they say no, so I'll go ahead and send it and then I'll keep doing what I'm doing. And I just sent it and like made a note, you know, that it had happened and kind of set the, the drop dead date on it just so I knew when to not bother talking to them if something happened. And uh, just kept going and uh, I kept piling up the rejections. I got more and more discouraged. I had a real heart to heart with some of my critique partners and we actually agreed we were going to temporarily trunk the Imaginary Corpse. Um, not because it was bad, but because we're like, probably the problem.
Kaelyn:03:33 Wait, Tyler, trunk? You missed a perfectly good myster pun there. Bury! Come on.
Tyler: 03:41 Right. You know, we'll see. This is why I take multiple drafts. Um, so, um, so we're talking about, I'm talking about, uh, just burying this thing out in the desert and pulling it out later, basically saying it's good, but probably this will be a better second or third book. This will be an easier book to sell when you have a name to market it on. And um, and I said, you know, I think you've got a point. As much as I love this book, it's probably time to say goodbye. I'll let this set of queries kind of peter out and if none of them end in an offer, uh, I'll say goodbye and we'll move onto the next thing. And literally I made that decision and then came into my office job the next morning and I had an email waiting for me from Angry Robot books saying, we love this and we want to publish it next year. Uh, this was in summer 2018 after I finished biting down on my hand, so I didn't scream in the middle of my office. I, uh, you know, I finished screaming internally, told all the people who you typically tell, oh my God, I've got an offer. And they were, who reminded me do not pass go, get an agent. So I followed up with via three agents at the time, had my query and had not said anything.
Tyler: 04:53 Um, oh, that's not true. One hit it asked for a partial. Okay. Um, so I emailed those three, uh, and also one who also told me like, she took like a full request to decide I can't sell this. So I emailed her too, cause why not? And basically I got to, I've got two people who said, no. Uh, I still don't think, I don't feel strongly enough about the project to feel good taking you on. Um, and then I got to, who actually did the infamous agent call? Uh, one of them was Lisa. Um, and, uh, after a, some thought, you know, I did the normal thing. I took the calls, told them both give me a few days. Um, and I went with Lisa basically because of her enthusiasm, um, was a lot of it. Uh, I got on the phone with her and she was enthusiastic.
Tyler: 05:39 She was warm and she was kind, and she also took very seriously that I wanted to be a full time writer. Um, and she, and, but she also made sure I knew what kind of work goes into that. She was not like, Oh yeah, we can absolutely get you there. She said, well, okay, we can try, but here's the path that you are going on at that point. Here's when I think it makes sense for you to tell your day job: See Ya. Um, and so that also really won me over. I was like, oh good. She takes me seriously. But she's not, uh, you know, she's not trying to sugar coat it either. She's just saying like, we'll, we'll work to that, but we will work to get there. So, um, so yeah, so that's, that's my story. She gave me an offer, I accepted the offer and we wound up negotiating with angry robot. And here we are.
Kaelyn:06:29 That's, I mean, that's fantastic. That, you know, could not have gone more smoothly aside from, you know, all of the other rejections previous to that.
Tyler: 06:36 Yeah, absolutely. There, there were a few crying jags, but you know, that's, that's the business.
Kaelyn:06:41 It's a rite of passage, you know, if -
Tyler: 06:42 Right.
Kaelyn:06:43 Um, so because you had that really interesting, you know, sort of path to this, I think people listening to this might hear that and say, why do I then need to, I want to in who I'm going to have to give another percentage of my money to? So obviously you're very excited to have your agent and happy with them. So why were they worth it? That seems like a no brainer.
Tyler: 07:07 Okay. So they were worth it because I was not confident in my own negotiation power. Um, I knew that I was not coming from a place of strength in negotiating with a publisher. Um, and I knew I wasn't coming from a place of experience. Um, whereas Lisa, uh, when she spoke to me was immediately like, you know, she, uh, she immediately went, ah, you know, I know what, uh, probably the boiler plate contract looks like, and I know that I can get you something a little bit better in negotiations. I mean,
Kaelyn:07:38 Which you'd like to hear.
Tyler: 07:40 Yeah, absolutely. Um, and she was not um, just to be clear, I can say of my publisher here that she was not critical Angry Robot. She was just like, I know that this is an opening offer and I can, you know, if I can get you a little bit more in a negotiation, um, and just the relief of no, somebody who knows what they're doing with the business side, we'll be going to bat for that for my rights, for my advance rather than me with my, you know, I know a little something about something, but I'm not an a, I'm not a professional negotiator, you know, rather than me just going, well, I'd like a little bit more please.
Kaelyn:08:19 Yeah. Maybe extra money? Yeah, no, it's okay. You know what? I don't need the money. You guys should have it. Yeah. I think that's a good point that you brought up though that um, there's a lot of people don't consider with the agent and everything they're thinking is, you know, advanced royalties, money. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into these, like rights is a huge part of it. What are the agents know these things that, like you said, shoot, I know the boiler plate here. I know what they're going to send you already because I'm sure she's dealt with them.
Tyler: 08:47 Yeah. That was the other thing was that I found really helpful was that she was able to also, uh, reassure me about, she was able to explain my contract to me in language that I understood because of course it's written in legal-ese, which exists for a reason, but is hard for a lay person to interpret. And she was able to get on the phone with me and say, so this clause means this, that clause means that.
Kaelyn:09:10 Yup.
Tyler: 09:10 I understand the wording here is alarming. But actually what they're saying is, um, and, and she was also able to tell me what wasn't, wasn't unusual, you know, she was able to say like, so this clause here, literally every publisher will put this clause in the contract. This clause here is news to me, but possibly it's because they're British, not American. Let me look into that.
Kaelyn:09:35 Yeah.
Tyler: 09:35 And that was the other thing is she was like, I'll, I'll check with the other people I know who've worked with Angry Robot or other British publishers, make sure that I'm not raising an eyebrow at something that just has to do with UK copyright law, et Cetera.
Kaelyn:09:47 Yeah. I, I, well see, it's funny because I'm very involved with the contracts at Parvus.
Tyler: 09:51 Right.
Kaelyn:09:52 And I'm even sometimes having to go like, wait a second. Okay. Right. Yes. That thing, I remember that now. So yeah, having someone who can walk in and that is so tremendously helpful and important so that you know what you're signing.
Tyler: 10:04 Yes.
Kaelyn:10:05 So you signed the agreement and then, you know, what came next?
Tyler: 10:10 Of course we had the negotiation until we signed. Uh, and then it's been follow up on the negotiation. Um, you know, checking in about stuff like publicity, um, you know, like making sure that I'm aware of what expected next steps are, which Angry Robot, of course, it also has a publicity manager. A shout out to Jenna who is amazing. Um, but, uh, you know, but both of them, both her and Lisa are working with me to say, okay, these are the things we're going to expect you to do. This is the sort of stuff we recommend in Lisa states, ss going: So my authors at a similar level to you, I've had a lot of success doing this and that, so let's try to make sure that's on the schedule. Um, and then kind of the other stuff has been follow up, uh, getting ready for the next project and kind of making sure we're both on the same page about what we're doing next and where we want to go up is of course the answer.
Kaelyn:11:03 Yeah. What we're kind of finishing with everyone it advice that you have or something that surprised you about this process.
Tyler: 11:11 As far as what surprised me, I think I was, this is going to sound cynical at first, so give me a minute to explain it. I was surprised by how little really matters in a query packet, by which I mean, you know, I, I've mentored several people I've worked with folks. I'm kind of coming up behind me trying to get their debut together and I thought the same things they did. I thought I should in my bio list, everything that was even vaguely tangentially related to writing. Um, I that I should, you know, mention any scholarship I got that might apply to creative writing that I should talk about how much people loved my short stories in high school, that sort of thing. Um, when really what they want in a query is they want a query letter that pops in whatever way they want you to follow their darn directions and they want to see a good book.
Kaelyn:12:08 And if you've got something else that's great, but it's gravy. As, as for advice, I guess my biggest advice would be for finding an agent. Um, do your research. Like really look for someone who seems like a good fit. Who, uh, I can, I can highly recommend Query Tracker. I highly recommend manuscriptwishlist.com.
Tyler: 12:28 That's a great website.
Kaelyn:12:30 Yes. I, uh, I also recommend looking at, uh, like writers conferences and pitch parties and stuff that are happening to find out who's going, not necessarily to go yourself though if you, if that's your bag, fantastic. But I'm not really into the like speed pitching type thing. Um, but that was actually how I found Lisa was I found out she was doing a writer's conference in near me and I went, oh, she's out there. She's actively growing her client list. You know, she is seeking out new people to represent.
Tyler: 13:00 This is the type of agent I want to talk to as opposed to just cold emailing agents and going, I think you're looking for someone new. You're not listed as closed. So, um, but also, uh, my biggest thing once you're talking to them, but once you are actually corresponding with agents, whether it's the legendary agent call or just emails, um, look for someone who is a good fit, who feels right to you. And I know that sounds very vague and kind of crystal vibration-y, um, but seriously, look for someone who you talk to and you feel this is a good fit. This is a personality fit because they are your business partner. When it comes down to it.
Kaelyn:13:41 You said something very telling when you were talking about why you decided to go with Lisa was that she was excited and enthusiastic.
Tyler: 13:49 Yes.
Kaelyn:13:50 Working ... do this is, this is a business partner. This is someone that is going to help you be the most successful that you possibly can. And if they're not excited, that's not gonna, probably not going to work out great in the long run.
Tyler: 14:05 Yeah, I I knew so related story, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but down the road from the book was at the book was, was finally edited. It was going to proofs. I didn't, they have to touch it anymore. And so Lisa and I had to call about, okay, what's next? And I told her my idea for my next book that I was in the process of writing at the time. And she actually gaspedout loud on the phone. She was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And I was like, see, now I know for sure. I've done the right thing.
Kaelyn:14:34 What a gratifying feeling that must have been.
Tyler: 14:34 That's what you want. You want that agent - Exactly right. I was like, oh my gosh, you know. Oh good. I really did pick the right person. Like I hadn't, no doubt, but it was that beautiful reaction of like no, good! This, this is a partnership where I know she wants to sell this work because she wants to read it. So the Imaginary Corpse is a weird fantasy about a plush dinosaur and ex-imaginary friend investigating the first serial killer of the imagination. Uh, it is out from Angry Robot books. Uh, you can pick it up from your friendly local bookstore or directly from Angry Robot's website or from the usual online book vendors.
Kaelyn:15:07 Okay. Awesome. So yeah, check that out. How can people find you online?
Tyler: 15:10 The easiest places to find me are Twitter at, @the_real_Tyler,underscores, between the words. So the underscore real underscore Tyler. Um, or an Instagram @TylerHayesbooks. All one word also on my website, Tyler-Hayes.com.
Kaelyn:15:25 Congratulations on the book, I know we're recording in the future, so I will wish you good luck with the book launch and uh, so that sounds fantastic.
Tyler: 15:32 Thank you.
Rekka:15:34 [sound effect]
Sam: 15:35 I'm Sam Book. I'm going to scifi and fantasy writer. My first book City of Lies, came out last year in July and I'm currently working on the sequel.
Rekka:15:43 The City of Lies, which I happened to have read is a, uh, an award winning book. I notice you're, you're a little too humble to say, so I'll say it for you. Quadrupl now? Was it four awards now for that one?
Sam: 15:56 It has won a few. Yeah.
Rekka:15:58 Fantastic. Well, congratulations. So could you tell us who your agent is and how you chose them?
Sam: 16:05 Oh, well my agent is Julie Crisp, in London. Um, applied to a whole bunch of agents when I was query and um, ended up having conversations with um, a few different agents in the UK and in the US um, all of whom were really lovely. And, um, all of whom were enthusiastic about my work and um, I got along really well with all of them on the call. I think ultimately I chose Julie, uh, because of her editing background, uh, in particular because I was a very isolated writer. And I really didn't, um, we hadn't really worked with anyone who'd ever edited me before. I've, well I can probably use it. Um, so Julie was the, um, acquisitions editor at UK Tor before she switched to agenting. So she has a really strong editing background. Um, and she has some really strong ideas for changes to the book. Um, so ultimately that was, that was probably the key.
Rekka:16:58 Okay, cool. So you, you kind of knew what you wanted out of an agent in addition to your representation and someone who would submit to publishers that might be out of reach. Otherwise, you also like had a strong sense that you needed somebody who was going to be involved in the editorial process with you before that even happened.
Sam: 17:17 Yeah, I think that's, that's right. Because as I said, I really hadn't worked that much on my writing with anybody. I'd been very solitary.
Rekka:17:25 What was the experience, I assume you, um, made a revision or two on City of Lies before it went out to some.
Sam: 17:33 Yeah, so we actually did some pretty enormous revisions on it um, in that time. So we probably took out from when I signed to when we actually went out on sub, it was probably eight or nine months.
Rekka:17:45 Okay.
New Speaker: 17:45 Cause I do kind of a massive structural change in the where Julie had suggested that I balance the, the two point of view characters differently. So I essentially had to kind of pull the book completely apart, work out what scenes needed to be in what perspective and kind of rebalance, rebalance it and put it all back together again. Which um, is a very, um, look, it was a difficult -
Rekka:18:13 Yes.
New Speaker: 18:13 process, bit totally worth it in the end. It definitely made it a better book.
Rekka:18:17 Um, POV shifts and like tiny adjustments to POVs can make such a rippling effect on a revision pass.
New Speaker: 18:25 Oh my God, so much you think it wouldn't be that hard to switch from one to the other, you know singles? It was, it was so hard and so different because the two characters, even though they're quite similar in terms of, um, they'll rise in the same way and they have a kind of similar perspective, um, they still, they still react to situations differently and they differently notice things, different things about a scenario. So, um, changing from one to the other, even it's just not defined.
Rekka:18:51 It was not a find and replace of the name. Yeah,
New Speaker: 18:52 Not the same thing. Yeah.
Rekka:18:54 Yeah. Awesome. Well, okay, so what other kinds of interactions do you have with Julie? Um, in terms of, um, like copy editing or line editing, um, and then the submissions process and, um, what, what do you rely on her for in your author career?
New Speaker: 19:14 Well, she kind of, um, pulls me back from the edge when I'm being in giant baby.
Rekka:19:19 So emotional support.
New Speaker: 19:21 Emotional support, you know that, um, there's a Gif of a little boy holding onto a rope and wailing and crying in what looks like fast running water. And then his guardian comes over and standing up and he's actually sort of standing at thigh high water and it's not dangerous at all.
Rekka:19:38 Right.
New Speaker: 19:39 That's how I feel about me, me, me sort of panicky about things and her talking me down. Um, yeah. So no, I use it very much. It's, I'm a person who's kind of always my advocate and on my team and helping me, um, get through this sometimes quite challenging business so that in addition to the support she gives me in terms of editing and she still works really, she worked really extensively on the book. Even after we'd signed with a publisher and know a lot of agents would kind of step back at the point of which they've sold the book and say, you know, that's the publisher's job now. I've kind of done my part and Julie very much doesn't do that.
Rekka:20:15 And she was involved all the way through the copy editing stage and, and um, basically just anything that I need, she always makes herself available. Um, which has just been really, really invaluable to me.
New Speaker: 20:29 Yeah. To know that there's always somebody who's got your back and will reinforce your decisions and stuff like that.
Rekka:20:35 Exactly.
New Speaker: 20:36 Awesome. Um, so how often do you check in with her? Is this like a weekly or a biweekly or monthly?
Rekka:20:45 Uh, it, it depends what's going on. So when there's a lot of stuff going on, we could talk every couple of days when it's just sort of like right now where I'm just drafting a new material. They may, it might be less frequent, but yeah, if you've, when you're on submission, I was checking in quite regularly and when there's a lot of things happening anywhere around the kind of releases, the first book last year was a very busy time and I was harassing her constantly. She's very good about it.
Rekka:21:13 And when you were putting the book out in submission, had you worked on the pitches for the publishers together or did you, uh, you know, throw up your hands after you queried agents and say, okay, no, you can do it please.
Sam: 21:27 She handled that, that um but entirely. Um, I mean, I think to some extent she used some material that I developed in terms of pitching agents. Um, she, she kind of used some of that in her pitches to publishes, I think. But one of the good things about having an agent, um, is they're kind of preexisting relationships with, with people in the industry and they know what particular editors are looking for and they're kind of in a much better place than I am to know what we'll work on a particular person. So I left that entirely in her.
Rekka:22:00 Yeah, I can, I can understand, um, being relieved that you don't have to be part of that process. Um, I'm a micromanager, so I don't know,
Sam: 22:10 I'm bad at talking about, about, about what my book is about. Yeah.
Rekka:22:12 Yeah. I think every author is guilty of that for sure. So if you were talking to a new author or an unrepresented author who was looking for an agent, what tips would you give them about, um, seeking someone to represent them?
Sam: 22:27 I will, I would say there's so much information available now about how to do a good job of pitching and approaching agents, um, that there's really, as long as you're well prepared, there's really no excuse for making dumb mistakes that are gonna get you eliminated before you even get a chance. So take your time and do your research, um, approach the, the, the query letter or whatever you're using to, to approach the person as a business proposal. So you're looking to, to strike up a business relationship with somebody. So you want to sound like a person that they want to do business with. So, you know, don't be a dick.
Rekka:23:04 Fair enough. I mean, there it is. Okay. Awesome. So, no, I think that's a great tip. It's like there is, like you said, so much guidance out there, there are tons of blog posts about how to write a query letter. There are, uh, editors and agents who post query letters they've received, you know, that have been scrubbed for identity, but they kind of pick them apart and say like, here's why this isn't working or here's why this is a good example. And then there are plenty of people, um, you know, within anyone's, uh, general, uh, community that could offer advice or can even, you know, um, send people in the direction of a, of an agent that they might be interested in. Yeah.
Sam: 23:45 Yeah, I think that's right. The information is there. Um, so don't, you know, don't rush it. But on the other hand you can also over research forever. I probably [laughs] I'm an over preparer.
Rekka:23:56 Oh yeah.
Sam: 23:56 You don't need like the 11 spreadsheets in one. All the colors probably.
Rekka:23:59 Oh, come on.
New Speaker: 24:00 I had that. Unless you really love spreadsheets like I do that.
Sam: 24:04 Yeah.
New Speaker: 24:04 In which case it's a delight.
Rekka:24:06 Well, it, they can be calming, right? Like they can be reassuring. Like, look, I have facts. There are cells. Um, why don't you, uh, plug City of Lies again, the award winning City of Lies. Um, so our, our listeners know, um, like basically give us your elevator pitch.
Sam: 24:21 Uh, City of Lies is uh basically a closed room murder mystery set, you know, a besieged city. So it's about a couple of siblings whose family are poisoned tasters for their, the ruling family of the city. Um, there at the beginning of the book, their uncle, uh, the current poison taster and the chancellor of the city are both killed by an unknown poison. And then the city falls under the sage, seemingly from its own people and our main characters, the brother and sister have to try to figure out who, who killed their uncle and the chancellor, um, prevent that person from doing the same to the new chancellor and figure out what's happening with the rebellion, um, before that whole city falls, I guess.
Rekka:25:05 Yeah. You know, it's funny you say it's a closed roommurder mystery and you're totally right. Even though it's like in an open world city. Um, they are definitely, um, for most of the book confined to a small area and also by their, um, like their class standing. They're expected to stay in certain places. So that's a really interesting way of putting that.
New Speaker: 25:22 Yeah, I picked fantasy it's my, my jam, but my other great love is closed door mystery. So this is like my collage to the, the two genres that I love the best.
Rekka:25:34 I really appreciate your time and um, thank you so much for coming on and I know everyone's going to go check out that book because they should.
Sam: 25:40 No worries. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 6: 25:42 [sound effect]
Caitlin:25:44 My name is Caitlin Starling. I'm the author of the Luminous Dead, which came out, um, this past April from Harper Voyager. And I also worked as the narrative designer on this strange little show in New York last fall called A Human.
Kaelyn:25:57 Interesting. I didn't know that actually. That's very cool.
Caitlin:26:00 Yeah, I got to design body parts for money. It was very exciting.
Kaelyn:26:03 That is very cool.
Caitlin:26:05 So I am repped by Caitlin McDonald, who is over at the Donald Maass Literary Agency.
Kaelyn:26:10 Caitlin McDonald is the agent that we interviewed for the previous, uh, yes, the first episode that came out this week.
Caitlin:26:16 I may have thrown her. I may have thrown for your way. There's a bunch of Kaitlin's in my emails at all times. It gets very exciting on calls. We actually have to refer to each other as Agent Caitlin and Author Caitlin. So before anything happens, everyone else knows which one that's talking in, which one is referring.
Kaelyn:26:31 So, um, that's been really fun. But, um, so I signed with her back in April of 2017 and I had been querying at that point for a little bit over a year and Caitlin McDonald was actually the first agent I ever queried. Um, but it took awhile to get to a full request and then also for her to get to the manuscript after that. So she also ended up being the first one to offer even though I in the meantime queried about 40 other agents. Um, which of course kicked off the following up with everybody else. I ended up getting one other offer, um, and a couple of their near, near misses, but it was between two agents and Caitlin Macdonald was newer and um, had fewer sales under her belt, but we clicked more on several levels, including for me what's really important is, um, being extremely detail oriented and comfortable talking about logistics and practicalities like contracts.
Caitlin:27:31 Um, Caitlin McDonald, I'm sure she told you, uh, used to work in contracts.
Kaelyn:27:36 Yes.
Caitlin:27:37 Pretty much exclusively for a while. So, and I used to work for a lawyer, so it was really nice to basically say, what's your termination clause like? And for her to just send over the boilerplate agency agreement. And we were able to just talk about contracts. Now, I know that's not for everybody because a lot of people see contracts and start screaming internally. Um, but for me, that was a really big determining factor of why I felt so comfortable with going forward.
Kaelyn:28:00 Well, and that's actually very interesting to hear because I'm, one of the questions we got or things people ask is, do I just take the first offer that I get? And I've heard other people say, well, you might only get one offer. You had two and you actually had to make a choice.
Caitlin:28:15 I did. Yes.
Kaelyn:28:15 So that's very interesting to hear -
Caitlin:28:17 Which is very difficult.
Kaelyn:28:18 Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a big deal in, it's a commitment. It's a potentially very long relationship. So -
Caitlin:28:25 Yeah, it was, it was a really hard decision. Um, the other agent who offered, like I alluded to, you had a lot, a lot more years behind her and a lot more sales behind her. Um, and in some ways I clicked with her personally right off the bat faster than I did with Caitlin McDonald. But after talking, having several conversations with both and, um, in particular, Caitlin McDonald's boss, Donna Moss actually was willing to talk to me about what sort of support she had behind her as a new agent. Um, because it's really important for new agents to have, you know, you'd be able to use the connections that their agency has to be able to go to other agents to say, okay, have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? Um, and that made me confident that even though she was newer at the time, that she had the clout behind her to basically put her on an even footing with the other agent and then I could focus on other details.
Caitlin:29:15 Um, and then also, I mean, what, I didn't really think about it at the time, but what does become really clear to me that I'm really, um, was really a good move on my part: Caitlin McDonald is queer. I'm queer, I write queer fiction. It's really nice having her in my corner and fully understanding where I'm coming from as opposed to, um, you know, being supportive but not having that same lived experience when I like want to self edit or pull back or go, oh no, is is the reason why we got a rejection because it's too gay. She'll be like, I will, I will fight for you. I will fight anybody who says it's, and it's just really nice to have that. Um, you know, and I hadn't really anticipated needing that, but it's become one of the most, you know, not one of the most, because obviously like business negotiation things are kind of really important because at least I'm getting paid, but it's really important. It's really important on an emotional and a creative level to know that I have that support.
Kaelyn:30:11 You know, I think we like to go like, oh well the personal stuff really shouldn't matter. But like it does sometimes and if it's just like, you know, one more thing that makes you more comfortable working with someone that's really important.
Caitlin:30:24 Yeah. Especially if you write fiction that is very emotionally based.
Kaelyn:30:28 Yes.
Caitlin:30:29 Your personal life is gonna be very important to your art. So then you need someone who also understands your personal life so they can see what you're trying to do with your art.
Kaelyn:30:36 Yeah. It sounds like you guys have like a fantastic relationship. So what are your, what are your interactions like what do you, how often do you talk and how often do you get in touch for like, I have this problem or I'm worried about this because a lot of authors and agency, agents, excuse me, have different styles of communication. So do you find you're more comfortable being in constant touch or do you just go by what works best for both of you?
Caitlin:31:04 I probably bother her more than I technically need to. We actually, we have, um, the way we have the arrangement we've come to is that if I'm asking a question that is substantial that we may need to be able to find the answer to later, it goes by email because email is searchable and sortable. But we also text and that's usually for really quick questions. Um, or just touching basis friends or, you know, we're, I, I wouldn't say that we're friend, friend friends, but we are friendly enough that we check in on each other about personal stuff as well as business stuff. Um, and we try and keep the two streams separate. Um, and like on Instagram, I don't ask her business questions. I just get very excited about the cool pictures that she posts. And so we try and keep some, some pretty formal divisions.
Caitlin:31:54 Like I don't want to be, um, impinging on her very scarce personal time if I don't have to. Um, but I also am a bit of an anxious person and so sometimes I will spiral out. I'll need to be like, can you please talk me off the ledge? Because I'm clearly having a problem and I know that it's stupid, but I can't get out of it on my own. And she is very good about stepping in and being like, it's fine and this is why it's fine and it's going to be OK. Um, and, and, and so there's parts where even over two years in, we're still learning. I'm definitely still learning about what is good to bring to her versus what I should probably take care of on my own. And there's times where it goes the other way where I decided that, oh, this is something that I shouldn't bother her with. And it turns out that it's something that she really would have liked to know about two or three weeks ago by the time she ends up finding out.
Kaelyn:32:48 Um, I always wonder with agents, and you know, I, I edit books for Parvus as well and um, a lot of our authors don't have agents, so I'm kind of like their point person on a lot of things and it's like there should be a manual that's like, okay, besides all of this, there's gonna be a lot of emotional support involved and -
Caitlin:33:06 Yeah.
Kaelyn:33:07 How you feel about people texting you, having panic attacks over things that are not a big deal. Can you manage that?
Caitlin:33:15 Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I've, I've apologized to her on many occasions and usually what she does, what she tells me is basically this is part of the job. Like this is a thing that happens. It's a very, it's a very stressful business and there's a lot that's out of your direct control and a lot of it's outside of what you can even see going on at any given time. And so it's really easy to tell yourself stories that are completely wrong and not realize that they're wrong because you can't fact check them.
Kaelyn:33:43 Well, I always tell, you know, if I have authors or someone getting in touch with me and they're worried about something and they go, oh, sorry, this is so silly. It's like, no, if you're worked up about it and you're concerned, it's not silly. So we'll figure it out.
Caitlin:33:56 I mean, best case scenario is there is a simple answer and you're like, oh, and now it's resolved and now you don't feel that way anymore.
Kaelyn:34:02 I feel better
Caitlin:34:02 Right. And you feel silly at that point. But also at the same time, look, it was an easy problem to resolve and it's not actually something you need to continue being afraid of. So that's great. Yeah.
Kaelyn:34:10 So, um, we're asking everyone, what tips do you have or suggestions or misconceptions about looking for an agent in getting an agent? What do you wish people knew?
Caitlin:34:19 This is, it's a big question. Um, but a couple of things that come to mind. The first is to be really thoughtful about who you're querying about if you'd actually want to work with them. Um, and it's because it obviously you feel when you're querying and it's a very real feeling that you are putting everything on the line. And if this doesn't work out, you're setback another year or another two years, whatever else. So it's very scary and it's very like there's, there's a scarcity of options. So you want to maximize the potential for someone saying yes, but at the same time, you really do want someone who wants to represent your work in the way you want it to be represented. Um, and so for instance, when I was querying the Luminous Dead, uh, I had actually reworked it at one point in its revisions as YA because a very good friend of mine said that the themes are there.
Caitlin:35:15 Even though I wrote it, I had written it as an adult novel originally and it ended up being published as an adult novel. There was a period where she was like, you know, the themes are there, you could make it, YA has more opportunities for sales, there are more editors and there's more money involved. So consider it. And as a friend who, who writes both YA and adult, so I worked, reworked it as YA and I was querying it as YA, but I didn't really want it to be YA. I just thought I should do that as a business move. And it turns out I got a lot of rejections and probably because I was casting it as YA, because I think that comes through the, you know, if you're, if you're trying to sell a book as something that it's not or that you don't want it to be, you're going to run into some problems.
Caitlin:35:55 Um, I was very lucky that when Caitlin and I were originally talking, I said, so how would you feel if we made it an adult and terrified that she would say no because she had, she had taken me on as a YA author and she was like, Oh yeah, it could work either way. What do you want to do here? Or here are the actual considerations on both ends. But in the end it's what you want the piece to be, which was great. Um, but I think I wasted a lot of time and energy querying YA agents who pr- who are fantastic agents, but who would have ever been a good fit for my work in the end. And then I got rejections that were upsetting that I didn't need to get. So definitely like really cultivating that list, even though it makes it feel like you're, you're giving up options and chances is a really great place, is a really good skill to learn?
Caitlin:36:43 And it won't be easy and it will be comfortable, but it's, it's worth it. And the other thing that comes to mind is actually more about the query letter itself and a lot of people treat it as just a hurdle that you have to do in order to get past this phase.
Kaelyn:36:56 We talk about the same thing where it's like everyone thinks about it as, oh, I just have to, it's just something I've got to do.
Caitlin:37:04 It's busy work. It's like it's like a homework assignment, but it turns out you're going to use it, that skill a lot.
Kaelyn:37:09 Yes.
Caitlin:37:09 That skill set is going to be very important for writing your base pitches. I have found that actually if I write a fake query letter at about the halfway point of a first draft, I can usually find the problems in the first draft by trying to articulate it as a query letter. So I use it as a diagnostic tool almost -
Kaelyn:37:24 And that's fantastic.
Caitlin:37:25 - and it's a really tricky skill to learn. It's, it will not come naturally, especially if you're writing the query letter after you've done like five rounds of revisions and you know your book forwards and back because you're gonna want to show all the work that you did. But if you can learn how to distill it down like that, it ends up becoming a skill. Like writing a good query letter isn't just to get an agent's attention so they'll read the full. That is part of what it does, but it also teaches them that you can do some of the preliminary work for pitching the book to editors, which makes their lives a little bit easier. And it also proves to you, I'll come with me with a good pitch. Yes, it proves that you know how at least a little bit of how to market your own work, which is always great because you're going to be in situations where you're talking to people you know, maybe face to face where your agent is not there.
Caitlin:38:10 For the record, Luminous Dead, so the back cover copy is not my query that got my agent, but it is the query that I wrote for funsies. After we'd done some major revisions and I went, Huh, I wonder if I could write a better query letter now I wrote it, we got the back cover copy from the editor, which was based off of my original query letter, which then became part of my agent's pitch, which became part of the back cover copy. And I went, you know, we can do better. Hey I have this thing right here for you. And now the back cover copy, it's not 100% that obviously because I am not a marketing person and there are certain things that I missed or that I put in the didn't matter. But it is substantially influenced by that. So you know, if you've ever read this, and I'm sure there are lots of publishers who really don't care what the author wants to put on the back cover, but if you've ever like read a back cover copy and gone, hmm, that's not how I would've written it. Guess what? You can learn that skill.
Caitlin:39:01 And it will help you in getting an agent in fixing your own work at times and in working with your editor.
Kaelyn:39:08 Well thanks so much for talking to us. Tell people where they can find you.
Caitlin:39:12 Yeah, so um, I am mainly on Twitter @see_starling. It's a pun, it's a very silly pun. And um, my website is CaitlinStarling.com that has filings that has a couple of sneak peeks of things that I am working on that I will hopefully one day find a home for. It also has those pictures from the body parts design project over in New York.
Kaelyn:39:34 Yeah, that's very cool. All right, well thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Caitlin:39:39 Absolutely.
Rekka:39:40 Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.
Tuesday Sep 17, 2019
Tuesday Sep 17, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
Week Three of Submissions September and oh boy did we really run with it this time! This week we are bringing you not one, not two, but three episodes and they’re all about those mysterious creatures known Literary Agents. Who are they? What do they do? How do you summon one? For this episode, we sat down with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald to discuss all this and more. We loved talking with Caitlin and hope that our discussion might remove a bit of the fear and mystery from proccess of querying agents. Caitlin is with the Donald Maass Literary Agency and you can (and should!) check her out her and her work at:
Website: http://maassagency.com/caitlin-mcdonald/
Twitter: @literallycait - https://twitter.com/literallycait/status/1154917792619139073
Tumbler: https://literallycait.tumblr.com/
And be sure to check out new and upcoming releases from some of her clients!
The Resurrectionist of Caligo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KDWLM3P
The Library of the Unwritten: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/
In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast! We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any stress relief suggestions for Kaelyn while she deals with the Giants’ will-they-won’t-they Eli Manning and Daniel Jones situation. Seriously guys, she can’t do a whole season of this.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Kaelyn (K): Hey everyone, welcome, another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.
Rekka (R): And I'm Rekka and I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore.
K: So Week Three, Submissions September. And this week's a doozy.
R: We've got a lot of episodes for you this week.
K: Yeah, so, what we ended up doing instead of just one episode about agents, we.. you're actually getting three this week. The first one is going to be an interview with an actual literary agent. Caitlin McDonald took some time to talk to us, she was lovely, we had such a great conversation and that's what you're going to be listening to today. Then, we have two more episodes that we're going to be putting out Wednesday and Thursday.
R: Yeah, we're just going back to back with this.
K: And we talked to six different authors about their process getting an agent...
R: They're experience working with them.
K: Yeah, cause I think there's... what we're learning, talking to people, there's a lot of mystery around this.
R: Yeah. Mmm-hmm.
K: Everyone is very uncertain about what agents do, and how you get one.
R: And how you're allowed to use them.
K: Yes. Yeah, so we had a really great time talking to Caitlin who gave us some really interesting insight and... Yeah, Week Three: Agents. We… Three episodes, because it turns out there's a lot to say about that.
R: You know, this is a big part of it for a lot of people.
K: Yeah, it's the check mark. It's a huge check mark for a lot of people in this process is: “Get agent." So take a listen, we had a great time talking to Caitlin and hopefully you enjoy the episode.
[music]
02:01
Caitlin (C): I’m Caitlin McDonald. I'm a literary agent at Donald Maass literary agency. I represent primarily Science Fiction and Fantasy for adult and young adult, as well as a little bit of nonfiction. I've been in the business for... I think, eight or nine years no? I lost track, but around there.
R: So over eight or nine years you've seen it change a little bit, with going, you know, so heavy on digital all of a sudden, and the opportunities for print on demand, opening up smaller publishers…
C: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, at my first agency I was involved in a lot of reworking backlist contracts that had no language for digital to kind of, you know, deal with that change that was really becoming a huge deal. That was 2011, so... there was a lot. It was, obviously 2008 was kind of when digital really hit the market—
K: Yeah.
R: Right.
C: —started to become... um, but like, 2011 was when people really said, "Okay, this isn't going away. This is serious."
[Kaelyn and Caitlin talking over each other and laughing.]
K: Oh, people will read things off screens! They don't always need the physical book in their hand.
C: And it's not going to kill paper!
K: No, no not it's not.
C: It's a supplement.
K: Yeah. So, Caitlin, could you maybe tell us a little about what a literary agent does? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, like, "Oh, as soon as I get an agent, that's it, then my book's gonna get signed," or, "I'm never gonna do this unless I get a literary agent." Um, I think a lot of authors who are looking for agents maybe don't always know what the agent will do for them. What their job is, after you sign with them.
C: Sure, so there are some things that kind of differ from agent to agent, particularly, there's also differences between if you have an agent who focuses on Non Fiction or, versus Fiction. So, it's always worth having a conversation with an agent and asking this question of them directly if they're offering representation because their answer may vary from what I'm about to describe here. But, at the, you know, the basic level, typically, in addition to most of us these days do editorial. So, I will do at least two rounds on a manuscript before I send it out on submission even after I've acquired it, there's always gonna be at least one round of line editing but usually even before that, I'm doing at least one round of structural edits, areas where I'm saying, "I love this character but strengthen their character arc, you know, make their motivations clearer.” “X Y Z isn't working, let's find a way to fix that.” So, I always make sure that I'm doing editorial before we go out on submission. Obviously, submission is the Big Thing™, that's what everyone gets an agent for, but even after we have that deal in place for you, part of our job is to negotiate it so that it's the best deal it could be, both in terms of the offers but also the contract language. So sometimes there are elements that, you know, authors don't necessarily know or that don't come up in the offer point, so it's not a deal point of how much money you're getting, what sub-rights you're contracting out, but really nitty gritty language in the contract that might be boilerplate between the agency and the publishing house but maybe the publisher recently revised their standard contract, so we have to make sure that the language is still what we agreed to. You know, really little things, we're here to make sure that everything is the best it could possibly be for our authors. And then, also staying on top of everything afterwards as well. Os I don't just well, “Here's your editor, the book deal is signed, it's their problem." I'm still there to make sure that you know, everyone is on target for deadline, that the publisher is delivering on publicity and marketing that they agreed to. That, if there are any concerns coming up, a copyeditor who's making changes that the author doesn't like—I've had that problem before. Anything that, you know, any concerns my author has, any discrepancies, any time issues, all of that, I'm here to kind of be a mediator between my author and the publisher. If an author has a problem with anything, if they have a question they're afraid to ask the editor directly, I'm here to kind of be the difficult person so that the author can maintain their good relationship with the editor. The author should never have to ask a hard question or demand something that is going to seem pushy, because that's my job. I'm the one who gets to be pushy and maybe be the person that the publisher goes, "Ugh, them again." But they'll get to have a good relationship with their author.
K: I always really enjoy going through the agent because authors, you know, don't wanna be pushy and they're a little, "Oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here," and with the agent it's like, "Okay, let's just figure this out."
C: Exactly. We also know what's standard. What's a reasonable request where we can come in and say, "Okay, the publisher's not going to be able to do that but here's a compromise that we can suggest." So we can help mediate a lot of those elements where an author may want something but not know whether it's standard, whether it's something that they should ask for or can ask for, not knowing what is normal.
K: Yeah I mean for a lot of authors this is kinda their first foray into publishing and it's overwhelming and it's things that they think they should know already and they really don't. And there's no reason that they should. So, yeah, having and agent, someone that's in your court and able to help you navigate that is so valuable. A lot of people who're going to be listening to this probably do not have an agent already, and they want one. When you're evaluating potential clients to take on. What are you looking for? Obviously a good book is the first major component. But beyond that, is there anything you kind of take into consideration when making decisions on these things?
C: Certainly there's an element of understanding how to pitch, clear market identity, knowing that they clearly understand and read within their genre. So, they may... I don't expect them to, you know, know every, have read every book and be as on top of the industry and what's coming out in the next, you know, year, as someone who's in the industry, but I do expect that they read within their genre, that they have comp titles that are relevant, that they show an understanding of what readers are looking for in the sense that they themselves are a reader. So sometimes I'll see queries that come in and describe.. some.. they say, "Oh, this pitch is something that's never been done before," and clearly it has. Then I'm going, "Okay. You definitely don't read this genre at all, and this is probably not a good fit." You need to really make sure you're reading in your genre and demonstrate some understanding of it, because otherwise we will be able to tell.
Uh, the other thing that is really helpful is a little bit of that personalization when you're pitching to an agent can just be really helpful. It's not necessary, per se, but I do find it incredibly helpful to show that you know, you've done a little bit of research and it gets me more excited about a project if you know things that I'm specifically looking for. Not just my genre but specific details of things I'm interested in things that I'm looking for that you can cite and say, "Yes, my work has this and I know you want that." Then that can really get me excited about it before I even get to the sample pages and that's a really good way of grabbing an agent's attention.
K: You hear that, listeners? Slapping the same thing together and sending it out over and over again is not the best way to get someone's attention, actually doing some research and putting some time into —because that's something we talk about a lot, is this is not an easy process, so if it seems easy to you you're probably not doing it the right way.
R: So one place that folks can find your particular manuscript interests would be on your submissions page? Your submissions guidelines, generally. Um, lightly browse (do not stalk) your twitter, and if the agent is listed on Manuscript Wishlist, which is a website that like, puts together a lot of agents. They can fill out profiles and keep it updated themselves of what they're looking for. That's a couple of places where you can find out, is this agent interested in something I'm writing, and also a lot of agents will have the headers on their social media include the books they've worked on. So if you look at that header photo, it's like a real quick double-check. Is anything.. do I write like anything on here. One, if you haven't read anything on there, stop what you're doing if you're really interested in that agent, and read something that they've worked on. But, it's a quick check, just like, "None of this is anything like what I write, maybe I should look for a different agent, and not waste their time."
K: Yeah. Along those lines, one of the questions we had sent along was, "Agents, when they open for queries, this has to do with the alignment of the stars, correct?"
C: Absolutely.
K: "And the tidal forces of the moon and..."
R: "Magic. Lots of magic."
K: "And various other natural phenomenon." But when those things happen, what makes you decide like, "Okay, I'm ready to be open for queries again. I'm ready to take on new clients"? C: I man, I'm sure it's different for every agent. For me, specifically, it really has to do with how much time that I have. How I'm doing with current client manuscripts. Whether I've caught up on all of the queries already in my inbox. That's often something I have to make a really concentrated push, after I close to queries, to then get through all of the ones that are still need to be responded to. Then give myself a little bit of time to get through some manuscripts. I wish I could say that I only open to queries when I've responded to all of the fulls that I've already requested, but that's not the case because then I'd probably never open to queries."
K: as an acquisitions editor, I can say the same thing, that I always have a few that I'm still working through but it's like, "But I also need more for the future, so we're gonna open for submissions again." It's hard to balance that.
C: Yeah, yeah it is and the work-life balance as well, there's so many elements. Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that most agents aren't reading queries during work hours. They're reading them during their own personal time. Our work hours are dedicated to our clients, editing manuscripts, possibly reading fulls, but for the most part, it is working on our clients and editing the existing manuscripts, going out on submission, making sure everything is up to date. All of the work that is involved with being an agent for our existing clients is pretty much a full time job and finding new clients to add to our list is an important part of our job but it also usually happens outside of the parameters of our forty-fifty hour work week whatever you .. however you define that. I'm often sending queries at ten o'clock at night and that's just how it is. When you have the time for it.
K; Yeah. Same thing. I get responses from people that are like, "Uh, were you up this late?" I'm like, "I'm up that late every night. That's when I get my work done!"
We talked about this a little you know, when you said what does a literary agent do, but: relationships with authors. Obviously, like, one of your big things is, you're in that person's court. You are their advocate, you are there, making sure that they get the best possible publishing deal, making sure everyone's happy, handling difficult situations for them. But beyond that, your relationship with a writer, what is that like? What do they expect from you? Obviously, it will change depending on how things are happening in their career, but what's your relationship like leading up to a release and then, for example, afterwards?
C: This is such a good question because it' actually really important for an author to know what they need about themselves before, if they can. Which is hard to know if you've never had an agent, but if you can try to figure out 'what's important to me?' beforehand, then having that conversation helps you know whether the agent is going to be a good fit for you. Because it really varies for all of my clients. Some of them, you know, I'm in almost constant touch with. Some of them I only head from them when they have a manuscript ready and they send it and it's already revised and they feel like they just... "here it is!" and others are going, "Here are my next... here are one-sentence pitches for my next eight ideas, which one should I do?" "Here's a partial draft." so it really really varies. I've got some authors where I'm working with them on all sorts of different levels of early stages of manuscripts and others that don't come to me until they've got something nearly complete, or at least a full first draft, or a full synopsis, you know, it really really varies. and then the level of contact that they want also varies from author to author there are some who I'm here as you know an emotional support as well as all of the other tasks that my job entails. And then others who are very happy to sort of sit back and only reach out when they actually have a specific publishing question or concern that needs to be addresses. So it really really varies, wildly and it's important to kind of know "how much do I want my agent to be in touch?""Am I more comfortable with email of phone?" "Am I going to be someone who wants to be able to text my agent?" These are the kind of questions that it helps to be able to look a little bit inside and say, "this is.. these are the kinds of communication limits that I want with an agent," and to talk to them about it beforehand and make sure that that's what you're going to be getting from the agent you're looking for.
K: Well now, you, I'm sure, in a lot of situations, have to set some boundaries.
C: That is true, um, but it.. there often, I find, it's something that is done not necessarily explicitly. I kind of set what I'm comfortable with and if that means I'm not responding to emails that aren't super important on the weekend, then that's just something isn't necessarily discussed beforehand, per se? I know this sounds a little bit contradictory to what I just said, but like
R: No but by your responses, you're setting their expectations.
C: Exactly. Exactly.
K: I know some people that, when they first signed with their agent they're like, "I have this question," and I'm like, "Well go ask your agent then."
C: Yes. Exactly.
K: "That's what they're there for." "I don't wanna bother them." "That.. I.. you are not bothering them. Other.. you know, you're not calling them at one in the morning having a breakdown about something." That's bothering. Don't do that.
C: Yes, exactly. We're here as a resource so you should always feel comfortable reaching out to your agent about anything that is publishing and work related. That, at least, you should always feel comfortable doing. They might set the parameters of how to do that. Is it okay to just call them ay any time, or do they prefer email? Do they give you their number so you can text them? Depends. I mean, I know many agents prefer not to do that which I think is absolutely a good idea but I'm sure that there are some that are perfectly comfortable with it. So you know, having that conversation beforehand and finding what their preferred system is so that you know whether it's compatible with your preferred system, that's really the key.
K: Gotcha. So, we had kind of also talked about this briefly, but one of the other questions we wanted to talk about is, and I'm gonna kinda combine two things here: what catches your eye in query letters, in authors that are querying you, and at the same time, what are some red flags?
C: So, what catches my eye, I think'd be a little like what I talked about before, something that really speaks to me personally and actually addresses things that I have specifically said that I'm looking for. Anything that is particularly really unique, like actually finds a way to give me an unexpected twist within the pitch itself. I'm also.. I do really appreciate comp titles that kind of combine, you know, taking two very very disparate comps and combining them to say "here are two things that are nothing alike but if you combined them, that's my book." Then you can get a sense of, "Oh, here is something really new and unique." I once got a query that said it's Jane Austin's Emma meets Dexter. And then..
K: Oh!
C: Yeah, and then the plots came out, like, Yes, that makes sense! But getting that, those kind of comp titles, I went, "That is very interesting and I want to learn more." So, you know, it's.. comp titles don't have to be like that but they can be a very interesting way to condense a unique aspect of your book into one creative, short pithy pitch.
In terms of red flags, I think it's often a, like I said before, very clear not understanding of their genre or the type of book I'm looking for if they very clearly have misunderstood, not just the genre per se, but something say, comes in and is pretty heavily misogynistic in a certain way or something that just, like, if you check my social media, I'm very clearly not interested in works that are, you know, a certain way, even if they are science fiction or fantasy.
And then, also I would say another huge red flag is authors who feel the need to attack other authors or existing books for a genre in their query letter.
K: Oh really? C: that is never good. don't be that person.
K: No.
C: Yes, I've definitely those books that come in say, "Well, this book was terrible," or "Nothing in YA is good anymore," or, "Twilight was terrible!"
K: Oh my god.
C: Don't be that person. That's... you know, don't attack other authors in your query. It's not a good look.
K: I'm making this face right now because I have read so many query letters and I have never seen that.
C: Really?
K: That's like. now see, watch.. cause we're open for submissions now so I'm gonna get like ten of those. Now that I've said that but like, oh my god, wow. I thought I'd seen everything. That's a new one. Okay.
R: Actually that comes up on Twitter a lot. I see a lot of agents saying "Please don't do this. You know, don't insult J K Rowling because you think that will make your book sound more intelligent. It doesn't."
K: It doesn't and I mean, you know. Come on, Harry Potter.
R: Regardless of whether you like it, it was very successful. An agent wouldn't mind a Harry Potter.
C: And it sets yu up as a person who is going to be not someone who plays ball with the industry if you're going to be someone like that then that doesn't send a good message about the type of person you're going to be in terms of how you interact with other authors and publishers. and the fact is other authors: those are your peers, those are your support network. you need other authors because their success is your success. And their blurbs are how you get found and you all have to support each other and so if you're not going to be interested in doing that then you're probably not going to succeed in the book industry.
K: I've done a couple things over the years and a question I get a lot is well you guys are like, you know a small independent press, and "yes, we are, it's a lot of fun," "So what about competition from this what about..." It's not like... it's not competition. People, I think. It's not the same as cheering for a sports team. You don't love one team and therefor their failure is other teams' success. People who love and read these genres of books are just going to keep looking for more things to read. So everyone succeeding you know especially in similar veins that you're working in, that's great for you as an author because that means more people might come across your book as a result of that.
C: Exactly.
K: But it is very interesting when you look at these and you're evaluating if you think you can work with this person. Can I help no only them but like, I need to be successful here. Your author's success is the agent's success but you still have to work within the industry and you still have to be able to put together and sell a book at the end of the day and if you're presenting yourself in a way that's gonna make your agent think "I'm not sure I can do this with this person" that's gonna drive them away.
R: We talk a lot about querying an agent for the first time, creating a new relationship with them, but frequently, especially in genre fiction, book deals are for more than one book. So once you have entered into like the second in a series or the second book that's been optioned as part of the same contract, does your relationship change with the author at all?
C: Um, yes, so it's very much, I think, it depends from agent to agent but for me, I'm very much willing to work with authors as early as they have pitch ideas. So they will come to me with, you know, ideas, with early drafts, and I'll be definitely working on things much earlier than I would be than a query. So, obviously, when you query your manuscript should be as close to final as you can possibly make it. You should have already had some beta readers, you should have already done editing, and so at that point the hope is that it will only take a few more rounds with an agent before it's ready to go on submission. Obviously for your second or third book, and books after that, that's necessarily not the case. So yes, I am seeing much earlier drafts. I have worked on books that are completely rewritten from scratch multiple times before going to the publisher ad also part of it is deciding what the next book should be sometimes. So I've had clients where we look at their first book and where it fit in the market place, and their other book ideas, some of which might be very different from the first book, and others might be in between and we say, "okay, how do you want to be positioned in the marketplace as your career? Do you want to be a YA author or do you want to be an adult author? Do you want to be a horror author or do you want to be a fantasy author? If you want to be both that's fine, but if you really feel strongly about one of these things, and you just happen to have one book idea that falls outside that parameter, then maybe we don't so that as the second book, maybe that's the third or fourth. Maybe that's an outlier book." So, figuring out how the author wants to be positioned in the marketplace and making sure that we are following a trajectory that will achieve that is part of what I help them do.
K: That's something that I think a lot of people don't realize a lot of agents do is, basically helping the author come up with an identity. And how they're gonna fit into the marketplace, what they want to be known for. Yeah that's really interesting to think about as well.
Anything that you wish people knew about literary agents? Any giant misconceptions you frequently come across? You know, obviously the stuff about the bloodletting is all ~true, but the rest of it?
C: I think that the big thing I would just... I really wish to share with people is that I promise we're not scary. It's... We're just people like you. We just love books, like you. I.. when I got to conferences there are so many people who are so scared and I just want to hug them and say, "No, it's okay, I promise.. there's nothing to be scared of."
K: Wait, quick qualification. If you run into Caitlin at a conference do not walk up to her and hug her immediately. Ask first.
C: Thank you. Fair. Thank you. Yeah, but I also there's just a I feel like there's a I don't wanna say a culture of self-rejection but there is.. I see a lot of self-rejection—
K: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
C: —on the internet and on social media and people will ask me, "Can I query you?" and I'm going, "Why are you asking me? Just do it. Just do it!" You know, alway always give it a shot and you know, we're just here because we love books and we want to help you succeed. Like we want authors to succeed. We want books to succeed. We're not out here saying no to books because we're up in a castle laughing at all of you. We really really want these books to succeed. We want to see more books that we love. And most of the time, when we reject something, it's with a heavy heart. It's, "I love this pitch but the writing just wasn't quite there yet, but man, I hope they come back to me with another project in a couple of years when they've really honed their skill and improved their writing." You know that's really where we're coming from is, "Not this one, but keep working at it. We're waiting for you to come back next time and really nail it."
K: to everyone I hope hearing that is encouraging. I'm encouraged just listening to it and I'm not even querying an agent. Thank you so much for talking to us. This was really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation.
C: Of course, well thank you for having me, it's been great.
K: So, where can people find you on the socials?
C: I'm on most social media @literallycait that's c-a-i-t short for Caitlin, and on the Donald Maass website which is MaassAgency.com.
R: Alright so is there anything else that you wanna tease for people, books coming out or anything like that?
C: Sure I've got a couple really exciting books coming out over the next month or two. We've got The Resurrectionist of Caligo by Wendy Trimboli and Alicia Zaloga, which is very very exciting. Kind of dark Victorian-esque fantasy, which would be great for anyone who's a fan of the podcast Sawbones. If you're into that you'll definitely like this book. And I've also got The Library of the Unwritten, by A J Hackwith, which is
K: Yes
C: Fabulous Hell based fntasy about books that are unwritten escaping their library and going on walkabout and the librarion having to chase them down it's very fun and if you love books it really explores the concepts of narrative and character and what it means to have those elements and give them agency so it's a really it's a love letter to the concept of writing. It's fabulous.
K: That one's on my list, I'm very excited for that one.
C: Oh good.
K: Okay, so. The take away here: Agents; they're people just like the rest of us.
R: At least one is.
K: One of them anyway. The rest are in the castle.
R: Okay, thank you so much Caitlin, we really appreciate your time.
C: Thank you.
31:34 [Music] R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general remember you can find us on twitter @WMBcast, same for instagram, or WMBcast.com.
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Tuesday Sep 10, 2019
Episode 13: My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Tuesday Sep 10, 2019
Tuesday Sep 10, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
It’s Week Two of Submissions September and we are talking about query letters! What are they? What purpose do they serve? Why are they so freaking hard to write?? Your query letter is an incredibly important part of your submission and Rekka and Kaelyn take a dive into what makes a good QL, so dos and don’ts, and some insight into Rekka’s work on her own query letter.
If you missed last week’s episode, this month Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast! We’re up to seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and has anyone else watched “Carnival Row” yet? Because we have some Thoughts and need someone to talk to about them.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Kaelyn:00:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between.
Rekka:00:06 I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:09 And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for purpose press. And this is week two of Submissions September.
Rekka:00:15 It's a big month for us.
Kaelyn:00:17 It's a busy month for us.
Rekka:00:18 Well it was busy month was last month when you were editing all these episodes together.
Kaelyn:00:21 Yeah, yeah, that's true. We're going to have a break then. But uh, yeah. So this week we're talking about query letters. Um, what are they, what are their purpose?
Rekka:00:31 Why are they so scary?
Kaelyn:00:32 Why are they so hard to write?
Rekka:00:35 Um, and there's a little bonus in there.
Kaelyn:00:37 Oh yes. And ah, we get to hear uh, we get to hear something special from Rekka with her own experience with this. So, you know, make sure you get all the way to the end of the episode for that. Um, this was, you know, when we were kind of sitting down mapping out, okay, um, what we're gonna do for this. Um, I very adamantly wanted to do an episode that was just about query letters because I think they're a frequently, I won't say overlooked but under emphasized tool.
Rekka:01:05 Until it's too late.
Kaelyn:01:06 Exactly.
Rekka:01:07 So suddenly you're panicking about your query letter because you have to include one and what goes in it and how good does it have to be. And, um, you, should I write it from the first person perspective of my main character or short -
Kaelyn:01:22 Wait, wait, spoiler alert. Don't do that.
Rekka:01:24 Or should I write it in pig Latin or should I, you know, write it backward? Like should I write it as a poem so that it stands out in the inbox?
Kaelyn:01:35 I got one of those.
Rekka:01:36 I believe you. Yeah. Okay.
Kaelyn:01:38 Um, so yeah, we go over, you know, some of the, like the origin story, if you will, of these, the purpose of them and um, what, what yours should have and what you should be planning for and what to do with it. So, um, I think it's a very important thing to take, the appropriate amount of time to work on. So we definitely, you know, we wanted to talk about that and um, oh boy did we [laughs] so, um, that's the episode. Uh, again, you know we're, this is episode two of it's looking to be five and for Submissions September, we're rolling right through them.
Rekka:02:13 Yup.
Kaelyn:02:14 So we'll be back next week.
Rekka:02:16 You're getting one a week through September and then we're going to back off again.
Kaelyn:02:19 Then we're going to take a nap for a while.
Rekka:02:22 Easily, easily a month.
Kaelyn:02:23 And um, you know, maybe around December we'll, we'll poke our heads up out of the sand again. Um, so anyway, uh, enjoy the episode everyone and we'll catch you next week
Rekka:02:31 Yeah, enjoy the episode
Speaker 2: 02:35 [music]
Speaker 3: 02:40 [music]
Rekka:02:49 Are you going to be able to have a full conversation? Are you going to just sort of slip into a nap?
Kaelyn:02:54 Yeah, no, it's a barbecue coma, specifically mac and cheese coma. That was, you know -
Rekka:03:00 Free Mac and cheese coma.
Kaelyn:03:01 That's fine. I really want to go look at the order ticket and see like what was on their first verse they actually gave us because I'm convinced we walked away with at least part of someone else's meal.
Rekka:03:13 I mean, part of the meal we ordered that they canceled that, then we -
Kaelyn:03:16 Yeah, no, I mean they definitely handed it, handed us all of it. It's not like we picked up someone else's stuff and walked away with it.
Rekka:03:23 No. And I think the way the bags were spread out, some, like some of all of our order wasn't across two different bags.
Kaelyn:03:30 Who knows. Yeah, we're recording already?
Rekka:03:33 Yeah, of course.
Kaelyn:03:33 Yeah, of course we are. Hey everyone episode or, it's sorry, Submissions September week two.
Rekka:03:41 Is it?
Kaelyn:03:41 Yeah.
Rekka:03:42 So Gosh, time is funny that way.
Kaelyn:03:45 Yeah. No, week two.
Rekka:03:46 The problem is I was focused on the fact that this was episode 13. So to me, yeah.
Kaelyn:03:52 No, those numbers, they're tricky.
Rekka:03:53 13 doesn't match because week two is the 10th. I'm like, this doesn't make any sense.
Kaelyn:03:58 And you know, episode two, but week thirteen, you know, it's, it's tricky. Uh, so -
Rekka:04:05 Week two, episode 13, you just said it backwards. Now I am confused.
Kaelyn:04:09 See I was, I was seeing if you'd catch that there. That was good. Good. Looking at Rekka.
Rekka:04:14 I pay attention.
Kaelyn:04:16 Uh, so what are we talking about today?
Rekka:04:18 Query letters.
Kaelyn:04:21 Query letters, these -
Rekka:04:22 Do it!
Kaelyn:04:22 The dreaded query letter.
Rekka:04:24 I don't know why they're so dreaded.
Kaelyn:04:25 They're hard.
Rekka:04:26 But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody.
Kaelyn:04:29 But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody.
Rekka:04:32 And if you get it wrong, they'll laugh at you.
Kaelyn:04:35 It's, query letters are hard. Um, it's, you're summarizing your entire book plus a little bit about yourself in about 400 words. That's hard.
Rekka:04:49 Four hundred sounds a little long.
Kaelyn:04:50 Yeah. Probably 300, one page, you know, whatever you can get on that and maybe use a really small font. So, yeah, today we're talking about query letters, which is the next vital component of getting your submission ready.
Rekka:05:05 By the way, don't use a really small font.
Kaelyn:05:07 Don't use a really small font.
Rekka:05:08 That was not good advice because -
Kaelyn:05:09 That was not an endorsement to that. Um, yeah. So we're talking about query letters today and what they are, what they're used for, why you need one. Yeah. Um, so Rekka I mean, you've, you've written them.
Rekka:05:24 I have um mostly, I have written, uh, one that was submitted, which became Flotsam.
Kaelyn:05:31 Yes.
Rekka:05:32 And there were nine different versions of the Flotsam query letter of which I chose one.
Kaelyn:05:36 And you don't understand why this is so scary to people?
Rekka:05:40 What do you mean? You think I wrote nine cause I was nervous?
Kaelyn:05:43 No, but because it's hard because you wrote nine different.
Rekka:05:46 Yeah, no, no. I approached them in different ways. Like this one was character forward. This one was fine and that's great. Yeah. It was just like when I wrote them, I was not planning to submit. We've talked the past about how Flotsam was supposed to be self published. So at this point I was doing this for the practice of writing a query letter so that someday I would be able to write good marketing copy.
Kaelyn:06:08 Okay.
Rekka:06:08 And if you think about it in that terms, that's kind of what it is. Well, it's like you're marketing it to a very specific audience.
Kaelyn:06:14 I always joke that like the turnabout here is for the editors when they have to do cover copies.
Rekka:06:19 Yes. And that's where we get in our revenge.
Kaelyn:06:22 Yeah. That's, that's the revenge
Rekka:06:24 Karma. All right. You sell it, you're so good at this.
Kaelyn:06:27 Fine. You think, can you do it? Um, yeah. So query letters, uh, let's talk about why you need one and what they're used for.
Rekka:06:36 You need one because they're telling you to, but like more specifically, you need to stand out in inbox.
Kaelyn:06:45 So even going back a step farther than that, um, the purpose of a query letter as the name implies is you're asking a question. That question is, I either have written or I am planning to write this thing. Are you interested in it? It's a little misleading because what it's actually saying is here is why you should be interested in this. You are selling yourself and your book there. Um, originally, and I can't remember we talked about on this or on hybrid author, um, but when originally part of the purpose of query letters was you'd send them to agents in publishing houses because you couldn't send a whole manuscript.
Rekka:07:28 Right.
Kaelyn:07:29 Because you used to have to physically mail these things.
Rekka:07:31 Yes.
Kaelyn:07:32 Way Back in the dark ages.
Rekka:07:33 Chonky books.
Kaelyn:07:34 Yes. And, um, even more than that, you know, like if you've ever seen like typewritten pages, you don't get as many of them on there as you do using a word processor right today. So, um, that you used to send these letters saying like, Hey, I wrote this book, are you interested in it? And you'd start a correspondence based on that if you got a reply back, yes, I'm interested. Then you sent the manuscript along, um, in this day and age where digital files are uploaded really fast, really fast, and they're small little things that you can keep a whole database on and peruse at your leisure. Um, now they're kind of introductory and I don't want to say sales pitchy, but they are,
Rekka:08:18 They kind of, yeah. And, and what I was saying about like trying to stand out from the inbox kind of is what it is because these days, frequently someone opens a window for querying and income the flood. And so you get hundreds of letters from authors and if it was just a, an author's name in the from field subject line query and then a file attachment, it would get pretty like I would, I mean I would personally probably quit if I didn't even have that sort of like light touch before I had to get into the manuscript.
Kaelyn:08:58 Yeah. And actually that's a, that's a good point is that you query agents still. That's still the verb. Even though um really, you're, you are submitting a manuscript as well, but it's still called querying an agent.
Rekka:09:09 And this is one of those things like hang up the phone. So nobody's phone hangs on the wall and so charming holdover and we aren't getting acquainted,
Kaelyn:09:16 Aren't we adorable?
Rekka:09:17 Yes.
Kaelyn:09:17 Um, so yeah, that's, you know, that's why you write a query letter. Now it's, we're going to get into what should be in it, but it is sort of your sales pitch for your book. It is not, don't think of it as are you interested in it? Think of it as here's why you should be interested in this.
Rekka:09:36 Right.
Kaelyn:09:37 So why are these so freaking hard to write?
Rekka:09:39 Because imposter syndrome, because nerves, because you're writing to someone you don't know well and you are putting this thing that you've put so much blood, sweat and effort into and you have one shot because you can't query the same manuscript twice.
Kaelyn:09:57 It's very hard because you're trying to do two things at once. One is some tell, I won't say summarize because you should not be summarizing your book in this.
Rekka:10:06 Right.
Kaelyn:10:07 But you should be talking about your story.
Rekka:10:09 Yeah.
Kaelyn:10:10 Then you should also be talking about what the great selling points of this story are and that especially is very hard to do.
Rekka:10:18 For most authors that's not anything that they've given a lot of consideration to. They've just been working on their story and doing the work, doing the work, writing it, revising it, writing it, revising it, and then when it comes time to actually tell people about it, you're unprepared completely. Even though you wrote the thing maybe more than once.
Kaelyn:10:36 Yeah. And actually, in the previous episodes, we had talked a lot about your elevator pitch and uh, refining it and perfecting it in the debut authors episode. And this kind of goes along with it. Um, now obviously this will be taking place before you, you work on your elevator pitch for the book. Um, but you have to kind of quickly and effectively tell the reader about your book in a way that is going to intrigue them. And that is very hard to do. Um, you can go online and there are some really good resources and articles and ideas for how to do this in your query letters. Some major do's and don'ts. Um, we'll get into some of those once we break down. But, um, this is one instance where I'm like, hey, go online and read about things because even there are some great articles out there that will just kind of give you definitions and structure and some etiquette and what it should and should not say.
Rekka:11:35 Etiquette is very helpful because it gives you the framework around, like it takes away the like, okay, so do I come off like this or should I be saying their first name? Or should I, you know, like, how do I even start this? Because this isn't like necessarily relationship where you will ever call them, you know, Mr their last name or -
Kaelyn:11:59 You know, I get responses with that sometimes. It always makes me a little like, oh, I didn't know my mom was reading these [laughs].
Rekka:12:06 And it, and it is, but it's a strange, like it's a formal thing. Like you can't be too polite. Some people might say.
Kaelyn:12:13 Well, and I will say one in doubt, default to maybe not overly polite, but definitely professional.
Rekka:12:17 Right. And maybe there are some authors that don't even know what the difference between polite and professional is.
Kaelyn:12:24 Yeah. And, you know, worst case scenario, you're overly polite and that's not gonna, that's not gonna make anyone think badly of you.
Rekka:12:32 Just might chuckle a little.
Kaelyn:12:34 Yes. But they're, they're certainly not going to have a bad impression of you if nothing else there is that. Um, so yeah, this is th it's not an easy thing. And like you think, I think a lot of people think like, well I'm just going to sit down and bang one of these out.
Rekka:12:48 Yeah.
Kaelyn:12:49 Don't do that. If you're, if you've written it in less than an hour, it's probably not something you want to send around unless you're just really, really good at these. Which if this is one of the first times you're doing it, you're probably still working some of them or at least you don't know if you're very good at them yet. Um, I mean cause I can tell you like when I write cover copy, which is kind of doing the same, same idea at least, um, I write it multiple times, walk away from it and look at it again later.
Rekka:13:20 Right.
Kaelyn:13:20 Cause it's a lot of ideas that you're trying to get down at once.
Rekka:13:27 Yeah. You're trying to encapsulate an entire book, not just the plot. Obviously we touched on, you don't, it's not about the plot necessarily, but you're trying to encapsulate both the opening question, the hook of your book and sort of the tone of the entire thing all at once.
Kaelyn:13:46 And now here's the other thing, we had talked in the last episode about preparing your submission. Oh No, wait, I'm sorry. Okay. We had talked about in the, uh, the debut author episode about how your favorite thing about the book may not be the most important thing about the book.
Rekka:14:02 And that's really key to understand because the thing that you love about this book might be Hogwarts castle. You know, the selling point is the evil wizard war.
Kaelyn:14:15 Um, so, you know, obviously having someone else take a look at it, especially someone that's read the book is super helpful because they can tell you if it's like, um, I mean, I liked your book and I feel like you're not saying the things that are gonna make other people want to read it.
Rekka:14:33 Right.
Kaelyn:14:33 So, so that said, what should be in this?
Rekka:14:37 So like without getting too, too over-simplified one way to approach this might be like thinking about the over the voiceover and a movie trailer.
Kaelyn:14:48 Oh yeah. Movie trailer voiceover is always a good, 'in a world -
Rekka:14:52 Yeah, don't do that.
Kaelyn:14:53 No, do it if that's what helps it gets you out of here, like -
Rekka:14:56 Okay, for practice, play around with that. But um, don't put that in your query letter. Your final query letter should not start with "in a world where [laughs]' -
Kaelyn:15:07 In a world where werewolves have gone into space and returning people they encounter into werewolves and turning aliens into werewolves and now those alien werewolves have come home.
Rekka:15:19 So, um-
Kaelyn:15:21 Actually can you write that?
Rekka:15:22 Yeah, I'll write it. If you give me cover your cover art. Um, so I will, apparently really, really will write that .
Kaelyn:15:31 [laughs]
Rekka:15:34 So the trailer had 45 seconds to two minutes to completely hook you and apparently did a good job because you saw the movies. So, um, think about it in that terms. Like it might help to watch a couple trailers and not necessarily for how much they represented the movie correctly, but the kind of content that they're, they're showing you and keep in mind of course that they also can have dialogue clips and explosions where you don't necessarily get that, but you'll see sort of what I mean as far as like them actually representing the movie.
Kaelyn:16:06 Yeah. So I'll just bullet point kind of four things that your query letters should do. One is introduce yourself briefly very briefly. That should just be I'm such and such. I do this and I'm really interested in this thing that I wrote. Um, I get query letters frequently that the bulk of it is someone's life story or an essay about why they wrote this. And I finished it and I'm like, oh, okay, that was great, but what am I about to read? So if you get through an entire query letter and you haven't really talked about what you're submitting -
Rekka:16:45 Keep in mind if you are, if you are submitting to a publisher, this is for one book, this is not for you, the person they are, they are not going to invest in your career and necessarily like they may hope to be a big part of it, but this is not about you walking in and earning the corner office. This is about you have a title, it is a product and you want them to champion it.
Kaelyn:17:11 Yeah. And so the other thing is that, you know, like obviously your publisher is at some point going to want to know about you. If they're interested in your book, they will get in touch with you and find out about you.
Rekka:17:22 Chances are you've got a bit of a, an Internet trail anyway. They can find out a little bit about it., just scrape the surface.
Kaelyn:17:27 If someone is potentially interested in your book, they will call you and find out about you. For now, your main thing is to get them interested in your story.
Rekka:17:36 Right.
Kaelyn:17:36 Um, don't, introduce yourself. It's, it's always good just to have a little bit of context, but do it very briefly. And there's not really much of a need to include a lot of personal information.,
Rekka:17:49 No, no. And only the pertinent stuff.
Kaelyn:17:51 Yeah. Uh, so second is, um, book stats. Kinda tell us about your story. Tell us how long it is. Tell us. Uh, it's genre and, um, that's, you know, the, just, just the stats. Yeah. If you click on it, what they come up with in terms of charisma and um, defence hit points, you know, that sort of thing. The important stuff, you know.
Rekka:18:14 Let the acquiring editor know whether they want to reroll exactly.
Kaelyn:18:17 Um, just very, you know, I'm, I wrote, my book is called, uh, The Containment Unit. It's about 120,000 words long, and it's a science fiction novel.
Rekka:18:29 Hmm. I'm interested in that.
Kaelyn:18:32 That's this podcast.
Rekka:18:32 Yes, I know.
Kaelyn:18:37 It's, you know, and that can be one sentence that's easy. There's, you know, there's ways to finesse the sentence a little bit. It doesn't just have to be a blatant statement of that. Um, so next is tell us about your story. Depending on what your story is, there's going to be certain parts that you want to emphasize more, but you're basically going for setting main character or characters, you know, if it's a group, kind of introduce a group. If it's main character, just that, and then their problem. So you're setting this stuff up and then you're telling them, but wait, then this happened.
Rekka:19:12 Yep.
Kaelyn:19:13 Either they start with a problem or it gets worse or they don't have a problem and then they have one.
Rekka:19:18 Right.
Kaelyn:19:18 You have to explain a little bit of where the plot is going. Um, I get frustrated reading query letters where it's paragraphs about the character and it's kind of like, so what happens to them?
Rekka:19:35 Yeah. Cause that's when the stories really starts to get interesting or that's when it hooks people is when that character runs up against something else.
Kaelyn:19:43 Exactly. So you're kind of and, this is where I went back to, do not summarize it. You're not telling me the, you're not giving me a synopsis or a summary here. You're giving me the, there was, you know, there is an alien who's stranded alone on earth but has made a decent life for themselves and is happy here. But then all of a sudden his buddies come to get him and they realize they can conquer this planet easily. Can he save earth from his friends?
Rekka:20:13 Yeah. His own people. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing you mentioned, um, was the Colin Coyle method where like the first sentence buys you the first paragraph. So your query letter buys the very.
Kaelyn:20:25 First sentence?
Rekka:20:26 But like the very committal act of opening that documents, you know, like that's, that's a whole extra thing. They know that, you know, as an acquiring editor, they know that when they open that document they will be faced with a wall of text.
Kaelyn:20:41 While, so Rekka just brought up point number four, which is hook me.
Rekka:20:45 Yeah.
Kaelyn:20:45 You want to get me at the end to go, I need to know if the alien can save earth from his friends. So you want to make me open the query, the, excuse me, you want to make me open the manuscript based on the query letter.
Rekka:21:01 Right.
Kaelyn:21:01 The last thing is you're trying to convince me to read your manuscript. Here is why you should be interested in this. So giving away the whole thing right off the bat is, you know, it's gonna and especially if this is maybe a little bit of a harsh reality, but maybe if you're not writing the synopsis well and then you give me the whole thing and I'm going, well that doesn't sound great.
Rekka:21:29 It's like maybe you wrote an amazing twist, but you just laid it all out for me so it doesn't feel that twisty.
Kaelyn:21:34 Yeah. And maybe I'm not getting the correct emphasis on the plot and the high points of the.
Rekka:21:40 Yeah. And, and that when you write, uh, some, uh, when you write a synopsis, all that tension, all that momentum doesn't necessarily exist the way it does in your story. So all you want to do is give them the trailer that makes them bite and say, buying the movie ticket is opening that word doc.
Kaelyn:21:59 Yeah. So the other thing along the hook me line that you should be doing is, okay, you've written a great query letter. I am really, really like, I want to know does the little green alien managed to help save earth from all of his drunk friends? You know, and I opened your manuscript and let's say there's just something in the writing's good, but for instance, it's really slow, like the first few chapters, just, there's not much happening here. But from your query letter, I know what's coming.
Rekka:22:31 Right. You know the 25% mark hook.
Kaelyn:22:35 Yes. Basically, I know what this is building to. So instead, and this is a good example of why you need one. Because I, we do get a lot of manuscripts that just don't have query letters, which is not great because then if I'm reading, you know, like the first few chapters of your book and I'm like, there's nothing happening here and I have no context for what is going to happen later, that's gonna make me go, well this is, this is too slow. I can't do this. So that's just another argument as to why it's excellent idea to try to hook the reader into it. Um, so now you're probably going, OK, well like, so how do I do this?
Rekka:23:13 Yeah.
Kaelyn:23:15 There are websites and there are articles that will say like, this is the format you should have. Um, I think they're okay to use as guidelines -
Rekka:23:23 If you really don't know where to start.
Kaelyn:23:25 The other really good thing to keep in mind is that not every format is going to work for the best way to pitch your book. So if your, um, if yours works better with, you know, getting right into the, here's the stuff about my story and then introducing yourself at the end, do that. If you feel like it's an easier transition to say, hello, Parvus Press, my name is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then go into your story. Um, do that. It's, I won't say there is a definitive correct way to write a query letter because it's the way that you can best present your work.
Rekka:23:59 Right. And so while I, you know, maybe you don't have to write nine, but play around with different formats and see which feels natural.
Kaelyn:24:06 Absolutely. Actually, you just brought up a very good point of different versions because in the prepping your submissions, uh episode we had done before this, we talked about caveats. If you have a thing that it's like, listen, I know that you said you don't want Werewolf stories, but mine's about werewolves but they're in space and you said you're interested in SciFi, this is a good spot to put that in the query letter. Like I did read your submissions guidelines.
Rekka:24:38 It's not that I'm completely defying them, but here's why I'm defying them.
Kaelyn:24:43 Yes.And it's um, you know, it gives you a little bit of a chance to explain. Now this is not the space to write a 20 page enpassioned argument.
Rekka:24:50 No, but this gives you the intro that you can begin to let her with and actually kind of like kicks open the door just a tiny bit because you're going to be more uncomfortable because you have something to approach them with. Like you already know what they're looking for or more specifically in this case, what they're not. So you are responding to them on a personal level that shows several things. One that you, you know, like you have an interesting twist on something that maybe felt a little tropey to them. Two, that you did read the submission guidelines, which is always a good look.
Kaelyn:25:20 I love when people read submissions guidelines.
Rekka:25:21 Three, it's like your explanation of like, but wait, hear me out. This is your personality.
Kaelyn:25:26 Yeah.
Rekka:25:27 So you're, you actually are packing a lot of data for this publisher into this opening volley that you are going to start with.
Kaelyn:25:35 Yeah. And you actually kind of then touched on another good point with your query letter and format. The tone of your query letters should kind of match the tone of your book. If you're writing a really dark, you know, fantasy kind of upsetting setting where nothing ever good happens and you start out, this is a journey of friendship and hope, then -
Rekka:25:59 There are puppies!
Kaelyn:26:00 And it's the tone of your query letter, especially the part where you're pitching your story should match what is going on with the book.
Rekka:26:10 Yeah.
Kaelyn:26:10 Um, you know, not, it doesn't, not, not, I'm not talking about in prose and style.
Rekka:26:15 Yeah, and don't write it from the first person of the main character and -
Kaelyn:26:20 Point number two: Now is not the time to be cute. Yeah. Um, I understand that, you know, a lot of writers struggle to do something unique to make themselves stand out.
Rekka:26:31 I think there was some bad advice floating around that you should like make your query letter differ from everybody else's query letter. But like it's not going to be, there are so many query letters that it's going to be a lot like someone else's. And if it's a lot like someone else's and it's like wincingly campy, unless your book is campy on purpose, like maybe don't.
Kaelyn:26:51 A lot of them, um, a lot of them are the same but good query letters, like, you know, it's not that the query letter stood out necessarily, it's that -
Rekka:27:00 It didn't get in its own way.
Kaelyn:27:02 It didn't get it sewed away and that it did a good job.
Rekka:27:05 Mmmhmm. I like to compare, I mean it's not quite perfect, but I like to compare it to a gallery. You go to a gallery and the walls are painted white and the walls are painted white so that the paintings and the artwork and the sculptures, et Cetera can stand out. And that's what you focus on. So if you get clever or cheeky with your language, if you decide you're going to write it in pig Latin because you think that they'll notice you like that's an extreme case. Please don't do that unless your book is about pig Latin. Um, and even then save it for like one paragraph or a p s or something. But anyway, so like just keep your language simple. The tone can match, but don't get overly emphatic with anything. Don't, don't show desperatation. I don't know what you want to call it, but like be let your language in your corner. Let itbe the gallery wall and let your ideas stand out. Not the way you phrase it.
Kaelyn:28:03 Your language should be showcasing your idea. That's, that's it. You should not be having to do, you know, anything too overly clever or crazy to get an acquisition editor or an agent's attention.
Rekka:28:19 Right. They'd been reading through a lot of these. If yours is simple and clean and clear and concise, that's gonna stand out on its own.
Kaelyn:28:25 Yeah. It's, you know, and there's nothing wrong with writing in a very confident way. There's nothing wrong with, um, I, you know, I get, um, I get some humor novels sometimes that, um, you know, especially like fantasy kind of things. And the query letters are kind of written frequently in the same tone as the book and sometimes it works really well and sometimes it's what I would call overly sarcastic.
Rekka:28:57 Ooh, okay.
Kaelyn:28:58 And you'd be sup- that's something that was a weird one that I keep that pops up every now and then. I get these very like, sarcastic, almost nihilistic.
Rekka:29:06 Mmmm.
Kaelyn:29:06 Um, kind of tones in the query letter.
Rekka:29:09 And this is coming from someone who claims to be an nihiliist.
Kaelyn:29:11 I'm pretty nihilistic.
Rekka:29:13 Yeah.
Kaelyn:29:14 That's okay. I'm happy about it.
Rekka:29:15 Yeah. So be optimistically nihilistic in your query letters. If you're going to go that way. But like, you have one chance to leave a taste in the, in the reader's mouth about what you are promising them and if it comes off as in like this entire thing is going to be like Dwight from the office. I mean Dwight needs a full cast to stand down. Yeah. So your query letters should not just be Dwight.
Kaelyn:29:41 Yes, that's very true. One of the things we're going to do before we wrap up here is Rekka has very selflessly and generously agreed to read her query letter that got her signed at Parvus actually for Flotsam. Um, so if you read Flotsom, you, which you should go read Flotsam and Aalvage is now officially out for a week as of this episode launch. Um, so we want to read it because it's interesting to hear it and then you know, if you've read Flotsam compare it to what the book is. I think your query letter was a pretty accurate engaging representation, but it, but then things changed.
Rekka:30:21 Right. So, so it was a good representation. Things changed later in the revision process once I was with Parvus, but I had to choose what to focus on for my query letter. So if you've read Flotsam well maybe I'll read the query letter first. So, um, good afternoon. So there's, there's a personal note at the beginning because I thought I knew who it was going to. Ironically that is not who read it. So I'm always, you know, there is a chance that you might address it to the editor and find out that was not actually the person who read it. Obviously we're not just talking about the slush pile, but someone else at Parvus higher up picked it up.
Kaelyn:31:03 Yup. So not me.
Rekka:31:04 I'll start with good afternoon. And then there was the personal note, um, in which case I'd like to present my first novel Flotsam for purposes consideration Talis, tries to do right by the small crew of her airship wind saver. It's not easy when your work isn't legal. You take the contracts, you can get. Her ledgers drip with expenses that she has no idea how to cover, not with the work they've been getting lately. When an anonymous client offers a small fortune to make a salvage run for some old ring. Talis accepts the contract. No questions asked. Hankirk's skills are wasted. His forefather led a revolt against the domineering gods of Peridot, but the Order of Kindness Rising who carry on that legacy only want Hankirk to symbolize their legitimacy. To prove he is more than a figurehead, he needs an ancient ring that was almost lost a time. When the Kindness council rejects his proposal, Hankirk turns elsewhere to get the ring and who better than his old girlfriend turned criminal Talis to snatch it up for him. Talis puts what little cash she has left into the salvage operation in banks on the big payday, which works until the anonymous client turns out to be Hankirk, her instincts tell her to keep the ring as far away from him as possible. The smart thing to do would be to drop the ring overboard again, but she still needs to get paid. Written under the pen name. RJ. Theodore, Flotsam is an action packed ensambal space pop opera of 104,658 words containing creaking, airships, deadly magic and powerful aliens. There is far more room for additional adventures set in these unique world. Thank you for your consideration.
Kaelyn:32:34 Okay, so right off the bat, 104,000 words.
Rekka:32:39 Yeah.
Kaelyn:32:39 That, how many did this book end up being?
Rekka:32:41 118,000.
Kaelyn:32:42 Okay. Not as much as I thought you added.
Rekka:32:47 Inflation came with Salvage.
Kaelyn:32:49 Right. Yes. Yeah.
Rekka:32:50 No. That's where the inflation rates really skyrocketed.
Kaelyn:32:52 Not as, not as much as I thought you added, but definitely not nothing.
Rekka:32:56 Right. So -
Kaelyn:32:56 For those who have a read Flotsam, you'll know that that's not an incorrect representation of the book, but -
Rekka:33:06 Some names changed.
Kaelyn:33:06 Some names changed.
Rekka:33:08 The length changed.
Kaelyn:33:09 The length changed and some of the focus of what you'd maybe emphasize if you were resubmitting this now would have changed.
Rekka:33:19 Well see, hat's the thing is there are very small details and things that came out of like planning the sequel and the, and the third book in the trilogy, um, that, I might want to foreshadow a little bit in this, but this was pretty close to the version that was done. We just expanded certain ideas and there were certain things that I was asked to like, can you go back through and seed some of this or this scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe we can cut it and I go, oh no, there's like something really key happening there. Let me work on that scene. And then that scene got a little longer and stuff like that. But the, um, the things that were emphasized in this, you might not emphasize if you were thinking back on the book, like there's almost no mention of the crew.
Kaelyn:34:05 Well actually, so that's what I was about to ask you. So if he were querying Flotsam as it ended up being published, what changes would you make to this query letter?
Rekka:34:15 But that's what I was trying to say is that this was one of nine and there was a version or two that included stuff about the crew. There was a stuff that included, um, mention of the character Maron who comes in late in the first book. You know, there's, um, more mention of the aliens. You know, there, there were different versions and this one was the most character focused and had the most punch to it. So it was not so much that I needed to when I was writing this broadcast specific details and make the perfect encapsulation of what to expect in this book. It was make this book sound appealing and relatable and get somebody to open this.
Kaelyn:34:58 Yes. And I think that query letter did an excellent job of that.
Rekka:35:02 Thank you. So yeah, it doesn't -
Kaelyn:35:04 Because I mean back cover copy.
Rekka:35:06 Yeah. Yes. Um, I'm talking to the easy crowd, but so the back cover copy of the book ended up being far more focused on the overwhelming odds against this crew than it did on Hankirk versus Talis.
Kaelyn:35:21 Now something else that's interesting, yhat is not in that query letter at all is Peridot.
Rekka:35:28 Right.
Kaelyn:35:29 And the setting.
Rekka:35:30 So that is, and this goes back to what we were saying, like the thing that like wows you the most about your own story may not be right for the query letter.
Kaelyn:35:39 Because one of the things that I love most about Flotsam is the setting of it.
Rekka:35:44 I love building it .
Kaelyn:35:45 Yeah and Peridot and this idea of these, the cataclysm that broke apart the planet and it's now the chunks are being held together and there's just garbage everywhere.
Rekka:35:56 Everywhere underneath.
Kaelyn:35:56 Everywhere underneath.
Rekka:35:57 And you don't get that from the query letter. But that's hard to explain and still have room to get into characters and plot.
Kaelyn:36:06 And this where we're getting to with why these are so hard to write because you may have to sacrifice important elements for more important elements.
Rekka:36:14 Or for more relatable elements. I guess like something in order to draw someone in you have to make them care. And in order to make them care, you have to make it understandable what's going on. So for me to say that 75 generations ago, the planet's gods like broke the whole planet in a quest for extra power is neat. But now I've just wasted half of my query letter and I haven't even gotten to what happens in the book.
Kaelyn:36:38 And that's the thing with um, a query letters is real estate.
Rekka:36:43 Yeah.
Kaelyn:36:43 You have to think of it as, I only have so much space. What can I fit in here elegantly? It's anattrition factor. You have to like, you know, I know whenever I cover copy and um, I think a good method for doing query letters, even things like when I do a right announcements, I bullet point, I get a sheet of paper and I actually sit there and write this out in a bullet point. Things that they want the reader to know. And then I go through and I put them in the order of what I think is most important and that's kind of going to give you, you know, and then you'll figure out how to tie them together. Okay. I can move this up. If I bring it to here and get instead of three sentences, I can do that in two and I know it sounds so stupid and so like, Oh, you're just fiddling with sentences. You're going to have to do that. If you think that you're not going to be going, okay, wait, if I change these five words, I can use three instead. Yeah, it's the minuteness.
Rekka:37:43 So obviously that's just one example of a query letter and your query letter, it might not sound anything like that. You might lead with your name because you don't have the personal note to put at the top of the letter. You might have more to say about one character and not so many secondary characters to introduce in the query letter and don't. When I say more to say about one character, I don't mean go on at length. I just mean, you know. Instead of me going character one, one paragraph character to a second paragraph, boom, here's how they fell together. It might be, here's what character one wants, here's what character one is against in the world. And the boom is how does that character going to, how do they plan? Because you don't want to give away how they succeed or fail, but you do want to say like, okay, here's what they're after and here's what's going to happen. Here's their big plan.
Kaelyn:38:31 Yeah. You gotta you definitely have to figure out like that balance in there. But um actually Rekka again brought up another point.
Rekka:38:38 I'm so good at this.
Kaelyn:38:39 No, you do because it just, it makes me think of and remember things. Um, you know, the personal note in the beginning -
Rekka:38:45 Is optional.
Kaelyn:38:47 Well, if you're submitting to someone, like let's say, you know, you ran into me at the nebulas and I gave you my card and said, yeah, you know, you should, you know, I'd love to read that. Putting a little note in the beginning, like reminding me like, Hey, Kaelyn, I'm so, and so we met at the Nebulas, you know, my book is this. That's a, this is a good spot to do that.
Rekka:39:04 Yeah.
Kaelyn:39:04 Um, you know, if it's an agent that also, you know, invited you to query with them directly.
Rekka:39:09 But if no one did, don't put it in.
Kaelyn:39:11 Don't put that in.
Rekka:39:12 Obviously start this relationship off very professionally with honesty.
Kaelyn:39:17 And so I'm going to end this with, with one thing me and Rekka and I were talking about when we were getting barbecue today, um, that I was kind of thinking like, uh, this might've been a good thing to put in the prepping your submissions thing. But I'll start out with the query letters because it's kinda, I don't want to see your fan art of this. Um, I don't, this should be just your query letter in your manuscript.
Rekka:39:44 No supplemental materials.
Kaelyn:39:46 If you drew some things for it, if you did some, you know, maybe a map, but that should be included with your manuscript, if it's relevant.
Rekka:39:57 Not necessarily like here's, here's how I'd suggest handling this. By now I hope you have an author website. So if you have an area that's got your artwork and you have an area that has a map and you say like, this is from my upcoming project, which I have currently titled Blah, it's on submission or it's, I'm querying it right now. Um, and so hopefully, you know, like you don't, you don't want to give away the manuscript on your website, but you can put the artwork because it's probably not going to be the final artwork.
Kaelyn:40:28 Yeah. Um, as a good rule of thumb and not including art work, um, you know, especially cover art because we've talked about this a little bit before and we will do a whole episode on this in the future. You don't really get any say in your cover art. So if you're sending me anything, it's just kind of like you, when you talk about like impressions, that's not a good place to start.
Rekka:40:50 Yeah. If you're not a professional professional cover artist or illustrator, there's a very good chance that you're actually going to sour the impression of your manuscript with your - and okay. I'm using the word amateur, but I mean it in its literal sense which is -
Kaelyn:41:06 You're not professional.
Rekka:41:08 You're, people, amateur comes from doing it for the love of it.
Kaelyn:41:11 Yeah.
Rekka:41:11 That's where the word comes from. That's what I mean. But if this is not something you are trained to do, this is not something you do professionally where the illustrations you create end up on book covers. There's probably a nuance to book covers that you are missing so it does not necessarily help you. I might even hurt you to include materials for a published book that you are not asked for in the submissions guidelines. So submissions guidelines is probably going to ask you for your mind manuscript and it's probably going to ask you for a query letter and it's probably not going to say, and any artwork you've drawn from your story.
Kaelyn:41:47 And look ,it's great that like you're very excited and invested in it.
Rekka:41:50 Like I said, put it on your website.
Kaelyn:41:51 You can put it on your website -
Rekka:41:53 The publisher, if they're interested, they'll check out your website.
Kaelyn:41:55 Yes. Oh definitely. That's one of the first things.
Rekka:41:57 Yeah,
Kaelyn:41:58 I always do, but like it's, I'm not saying this to be harsh or to dampen the excitement that you have for your book in your characters. It's just one of those things where like we don't need this and this isn't, this isn't a value add yet and this isn't, this isn't the time to put this in there. I would go so far as to say it's not appropriate to put it in there because that's not what we're asking for. I don't your your ability to draw or depict your characters or the world is not going to have any bearing on the decision I make about your book. That's not making me go, oh, this is better because of this.
Rekka:42:39 However, it might make Kaelyn say, oh, they're going to want to use their artwork in the book.
Kaelyn:42:45 Well it's gonna make me wonder if this is going to be a fight.
Rekka:42:47 Yeah. Right. And that goes back to the whole like how easy is it going to be to work with you that we were talking about in the submissions episode.
Kaelyn:42:54 Every little thing you do or don't do in this process is an indicator of what it will be like to work with you. So,
Rekka:43:04 Be cool.
Kaelyn:43:05 Yeah.
Rekka:43:05 Just send in the manuscript, send in a nice query.
Kaelyn:43:07 Be cool and follow directions. That's, I mean that's the best advice I can give you if you are concerned or if you're unsure about something default to professional.
Rekka:43:17 Right. Always.
Kaelyn:43:19 And you know, so that's, that's the guidelines that I have for query letters. I know I'm making it sound scary. I won't say it's not hard, but it's not scary.
Rekka:43:31 Right.
Kaelyn:43:32 Um, it is difficult. So don't go into it thinking that it's going to be easy,
Rekka:43:37 Right. But look at it as a challenge because this is a skill you were going to develop as a result of doing this. So just like, you know, learning how to write better, how to self edit, you know, for an easy pass. There's lots of tips on that online. There are lots of tips on how to write query letters online and you can go and see some examples, see some definite what not to do is out there. And it's a skill that it behooves you, even if for some reason you only have to write one query letter in your life, it's a good thing to practice.
Kaelyn:44:11 Oh definitely.
Rekka:44:11 So see it as a challenge. You know, like, you know, use me as an example. I wrote nine and I got to pick my favorite one. It's way different than trying to want wrtie one perfect one.
Kaelyn:44:22 Yes.
Rekka:44:22 And so just like, you know, in your practice overshoot so that then you can like back down and take a look and like this, okay, this is, this one's working and I can tell this one's working versus this one because of this. And then you might end up writing a 10th one. That's the one you actually use. But you, you're building a skillset.
Kaelyn:44:41 Yup. So, um, that's the query letters episode. See that wasn't so bad. We got through it.
Rekka:44:45 We got through it. You can get through it.
Kaelyn:44:46 You can get through it. Um, so next week there's going to be our two parter.
Rekka:44:51 Right.
Kaelyn:44:52 We're doing a Tuesday and Wednesday release and it's all about agents. Um, we're going to talk to you some authors, about -
Rekka:45:00 Who have agents.
Kaelyn:45:00 Who have agents, and then we're going to talk to an actual agent, real life, who breathing agents, who has some authors.
Rekka:45:07 As it turns out.
Kaelyn:45:08 As it turns out. And um, you know, ask them some questions on both ends, about, you know, how you got to your agent or agents, how you pick your authors. Uh, so I'm excited for that one because I think that's, that's a thing a lot, that's a big question a lot of people have,
Rekka:45:25 Right, well, it's like who's on the other end of this query letter.
Kaelyn:45:28 Who is this mythical creature, this literary agent?
Rekka:45:31 Right. And literary agent that sounds very like diplomatic and like maybe.
Kaelyn:45:36 They are diplomatic -
Rekka:45:38 And they are an ambassador. So, but, um, yeah, so we're going to get a little taste of actual, you know, just like we shared my query letter, we're going to share some personal stories about, you know, not too personal, but like, you know, individual stories of successful agent landings. Y.
Kaelyn:45:54 eah. So, um, we're still open to and willing to be taking any additional questions of, for things that were not covered in this, you know, if we, like we said, if we get enough, we'll do a, a, a sixth episode this month.
Rekka:46:06 It might be October 1st.
Kaelyn:46:09 Yeah. You know, with just things that we talked about that anyone listening might want to hear more about. So you know, as, as usual, if you have questions, you have comments, hit us up on the a, the socials.
Rekka:46:20 Socials, @WMBcast almost everywhere where we exist, patreon.com/WMBcast. If you are finding a lot of value in these episodes and especially the submission September, we'd love your support and we can't wait to share some bonus content with you over there. But yes, find us on Twitter and Instagram at WMB cast and you can send us a direct message on Twitter if you have questions that you want to be anonymous. If you don't need an animosity no, that's not the right word.
Kaelyn:46:48 Anonymity.
Rekka:46:52 Anonymiminy?
Kaelyn:46:52 Annonnumititity
Rekka:46:52 If you don't care if people read your questions,
Kaelyn:46:54 That one! [laughs]
Rekka:46:54 You can directly reply to the tweet about the, the episode in question. So come find us and come chat.
Kaelyn:47:02 Yeah, if you message us in, you want to be anonymous, just, you know, drop a say like, Hey, I just want to be anonymous.
Rekka:47:07 I'm blushing as I ask, but yeah, that's fine. We can honor that.
Kaelyn:47:10 No, I mean, we'd like, there's no like wrong questions here. There's nothing that you can send us that we're going to go, they don't even know that.
Rekka:47:18 Right. So, um, yeah, we'd love to hear from everyone and we hope you're enjoying this.
Kaelyn:47:23 Definitely.
Rekka:47:24 So let us know if you're finding a good value in these. And if you are, we'd always appreciate a rating and review on your podcast app.
Kaelyn:47:32 Yes. So, uh, we'll be back next week with more, with the agents.
Rekka:47:36 See you then guys.
Tuesday Sep 03, 2019
Episode 12: Is This Ready For Other People to See? - Submitting Your Manuscript
Tuesday Sep 03, 2019
Tuesday Sep 03, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
This is a big day, not only is it the first week of Submissions September, but we have something much more important happening: Today is the release of next novel, Rekka’s Peridot Shift Trilogy, ‘SALVAGE’! It’s an amazing book and we’d love for you to check it out.
On the WMB side of things, this is the first week of Submissions September! Rekka and Kaelyn are bringing you six, (6!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel. We have a lot of awesome episodes lined up and even some special guests. Here’s what will be coming your way for the month:
Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript
Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter
Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald
(9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors
(9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors
Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any words of encouragement or congratulations you want to send Rekka’s way.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Kaelyn:00:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between, and also the first week of Submissions September.
Rekka:00:09 Yes, yes, and also.
Kaelyn:00:11 But wait, there's more, there's more. It is also Book Day for Rekka Jay!
Rekka:00:17 Well, RJ, Theodore,
Kaelyn:00:19 RJ Theodore.
Rekka:00:19 Wherever she is.
Kaelyn:00:20 Wherever she is. RJ Theodore, author of Salvage the second book of the Peridot Trilogy from Parvus Press, released today. Um, so yeah, big day for Rekka. Very exciting. How you feeling?
Rekka:00:31 I'm feeling oddly calm about,
Kaelyn:00:33 Well, that's because we're recording this before it's actually happening.
Rekka:00:36 Yeah. That's the truth.
Kaelyn:00:37 It's still, it's still, it's still happening.
Rekka:00:40 It's still coming up. Yeah. Gosh, yeah. Now, now you're getting me nervous.
Kaelyn:00:44 And so, uh, yeah. So today, today's records book day, very exciting.
Rekka:00:47 So if you are listening to this live or otherwise, you can go find yourself a copy of Salvage, um, and if you don't have the money to buy a book, you can request it from your local library, which also would be very -
Kaelyn:01:00 That would be fantastic. Um, also today, you know, maybe you could show Rekka a little love, tweet her some, uh, some congratulations, some support. Um, you know, if you listened to the previous episode as, you heard that uh book launch days are stressful.
Rekka:01:16 Stressful, a little weird.
Kaelyn:01:17 Anticlimactic, yeah.
Rekka:01:19 A little quiet, I work from home, so it's just like me alone in my office and nobody's blowing birthday noisemakers or anything.
Kaelyn:01:27 Well, now, guess what we're going to do. So, yeah. Anyway, we're, we're really excited for Rekka's book launch and um, we're also super excited for Submissions September. I'm real, I'm giddy excited about this.
Rekka:01:41 Kaelyn may be slightly more excited than I am.
Kaelyn:01:43 Um, yes. So, you know, we've been a teasing slash threatening this for awhile. Um, so we're doing four episodes and actually it's going to be five episodes, it looks like. Yeah.
Rekka:01:54 At least.
Kaelyn:01:54 In September. Um, so this is our schedule this week, um, you can see from the title of the episode, we're talking about preparing your submission. Um, we're gonna talk a little bit about getting your submission ready and then actually submitting, which is a lot of me ranting.
Rekka:02:10 There is a launch sequence. Please adhere to it for everyone's safety.
Kaelyn:02:13 Yeah, which is a lot of me ranting about submissions, guidelines. So, you know, just a, just a warning, get ready for that. Um, next week, September 10th, we're going to be talking about query letters, uh, their function, how important they are, how to some tips for writing them and what they should be doing.
Rekka:02:31 Yep. And also, you know, we, we talk about getting your stuff ready for submission in this episode. It doesn't mean yeet it.
Kaelyn:02:40 Yeah, sure.
Rekka:02:40 After this episode, keep listening.
Kaelyn:02:42 Keep listening.
Rekka:02:42 We've got more good stuff for you, the rest of the month.
Kaelyn:02:44 September 17th is agent's week. We're going to be doing two episodes of.
Rekka:02:50 Right. And that's, that's the one that's like, oh, okay. So one a week, but also a fifth one. So we've got a lot of great people who volunteered to come on and give us some of their personal experiences, including an agent. Um, maybe, you know, like if we have more than one at that, after we've recorded this, then we'll include more than one. But, um, so we're going to split that up into an episode up from the agent side. And one from the author side.
Kaelyn:03:15 Yes. So, um, I know that's something we're, we're really excited for that because that's something that a lot of people, um, are in the dark about.
Rekka:03:22 Yeah. And it's the big scary part because that's like quote gatekeeping.
Kaelyn:03:26 Yes.
Rekka:03:27 So this is the part where people start to get very nervous. This is the judgment before people even read your book thing.
Kaelyn:03:33 Yes. So then finally, September 24th, we're going to be doing an episode about what's going on on the other side of things where me, for instance, an acquisitions editor. What I'm doing when I'm getting submissions, what I'm considering, how I'm reading things, how I'm responding to them, et cetera. Um, so we still have some time for if you have a few questions for now.
Rekka:03:58 Like if you're listening now we can probably get your question in at the end of the month.
Kaelyn:04:02 Yes. So we were talking about, you know, potential six episode of if we have a bunch of questions doing an doing kind of a wrap up episode, um, you know, if there's any topics that people were particularly interested in or things they wanted to engage in more, um, you know -
Rekka:04:18 Or if we have, we muddied the waters for some reason.
Kaelyn:04:21 Yeah. Or if you're very confused. And, um, so, uh, you know, if we have enough we'll probably maybe do something with that.
Rekka:04:30 Yeah.
Kaelyn:04:30 In the end of the month. So we're really excited for this. I um-
Rekka:04:36 She smiling's it's just like teeth all over the place here.
Kaelyn:04:39 Yeah. We were talking about, you know, um, but we do organize shows ahead of time and you know, plan out what we're going to say. And we were kind of mapping out for the next couple of months, um, what we're going to talk about. And there were a lot of topics related to submissions and the more we looked at it, we were like, maybe we should break these instead of breaking these up. We should put them all together. And then it's like, okay, well we've got about three or four episodes of material here, but then doing them every other week is kind of -
Rekka:05:10 It's like months and months of just one topic.
Kaelyn:05:12 Yeah. And it's also sort of disrupting the flow. So we thought that this would be good, you know, for four topics, four weeks submission, September. And I'm that way it's kinda taking you through a process and hitting different points of things that are going to happen. So, um, we're really excited to do this. We hope it's going to be entertaining and informative as always. And Yeah.
Rekka:05:37 And so here we go.
Kaelyn:05:38 Uh, hope you enjoy the episode, everyone and, and the rest of Submissions September and we'll see you next week.
Rekka:05:45 Yes.
Kaelyn:05:57 [inaudible]
Kaelyn:05:58 Rekka first episode, Submissions September.
Rekka:06:00 Yes.
Kaelyn:06:01 This is very exciting.
Rekka:06:02 It's, I'm a little distracted again today though.
Kaelyn:06:04 Is something happening?
Rekka:06:08 She forgot me.
Kaelyn:06:09 I never forget you! Guys Rekka's book comes out today.
Rekka:06:12 Yes.
Kaelyn:06:13 Book Two of the Peridot Shift trilogy. Salvage.
Rekka:06:17 Salvage came out today and so it's my book birthday. It's a big day. It's also the first day of Submissions September.
Kaelyn:06:24 Yeah. But real quick, let's go back to you. So if you're listening to this tweet Rekka some, uh, some love and encouragement @bittybittyzap. Yeah, she would very much appreciate that.
Rekka:06:34 I would not be, um, against the idea of getting some, some call outs on Twitter and stuff like that. Positive call outs. Um, because book days book birthdays are lonely for some reason.
Kaelyn:06:47 No, it's not. You're here with me. I.
Rekka:06:48 am here.
Kaelyn:06:49 Yeah. Um, cause we're recording this exactly on September 3rd.
Rekka:06:54 Totally.
Kaelyn:06:55 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it is also, this is the first episode of submission September, which we're, so I'm, I'm really excited to do this and it's because I get to yell about a lot of stuff.
Rekka:07:06 Kaelyn's been like building up and building up and building up things to say about this for awhile.
Kaelyn:07:11 Oh, the thing is I tricked Rekka into this and because before she, she agreed and then before she knew it, she was like, oh, this is a manifesto as told through five podcast episodes. Yeah. Oh that's right, everyone.
Rekka:07:24 Potentially six.
Kaelyn:07:25 Potentially six. There's-
Rekka:07:26 She's already threatened there might be six.
Kaelyn:07:27 There's already, possibly six. There's definitely five.
Rekka:07:30 Why not 20?
Kaelyn:07:31 We've got, we have some really good stuff coming down the pipeline. Um, um, so yeah, today we're talking about preparing your submission, um, and getting it out into the world and seeing if anyone wants it. Now, um, I'm going to qualify real quick here that I am treating this the same as if you're preparing to submit or query to an agent or if you are submitting directly to a publishing house because these rules apply to both situations.
Rekka:07:57 Right.
Kaelyn:07:58 And there are rules.
Rekka:07:59 So you know how you try to go out to high school wearing your really cool new like accessory or whatever and you try to get out of the house before mom sees you and then like you hear her call you back from the other end of the, she's like in the kitchen and you just like, can I make it in the door? Like, just won't open. This is like Kaelyn is calling you back from submitting whatever you were going to submit. She just wants to check just your ready.
Kaelyn:08:24 Look -
Rekka:08:26 It's out of love.
Kaelyn:08:27 There's a lot of moving pieces here. Um, so we're going to kind of break this down into two parts. One is preparing your submission, which is how do I know this is ready to be put in front of people. And the second is going to be submissions guidelines. And I apologize in advance for how excited I am to talk about submissions, guidelines.
Rekka:08:48 Near and dear to Kaelyn's heart.
Kaelyn:08:49 Yes. Um, so the first, the big question, how do I know this is ready? How do I know time to send this out to people?
Rekka:08:56 As a writer, I've been working on my story forever. I've been revising it a lot. I don't know if it's good enough. I mean that's why I'm sending it out cause I'm asking, please tell me, but this is good enough and you know, at what point do I stop fiddling with it and start finalizing it and send it out.
Kaelyn:09:17 So I kind of always think of this as, you know, they say like if you make a journey by halves, half of the distance at a time, you'll never actually get there. It's kind of the same thing. You're down to a millimeter. And if you keep dividing it, you're just, you never going to get there to a certain point, you do take a step back and say, okay, this is done. So when do you submit it? The answer that I know everyone's going to love is when it is the best possible version it can be.
Rekka:09:48 Another way I've heard this phrased is that when you can invest more time in it and the return on that investment of time is not significant. Like if you could make another revision pass, but if you were just like -
Kaelyn:10:04 If it's not going to help, that's when you know the half journey. You're not, you're not getting any farther at this point.
Rekka:10:10 Yeah.
Kaelyn:10:11 Um, so we have talked about, you know, this, uh, episode two we talked a lot about, you know, pre-acceptance of your work and, um, then also working with an editor. Um, so hopefully we won't go too much into that. Again, probably people have already read it. If you're working with a freelance editor, if you've gotten notes, if you've had some Beta readers, um, you -
Rekka:10:34 Hopefully, it's not just you at this point. Y.
Kaelyn:10:36 eah. Yeah, I mean, you know -
Rekka:10:38 It might be, but like, you know, if you haven't found anyone who's interested in it, it might be that you need to work on your pitch and maybe you're telling them too much before they open it up. But, um, you can hire people to read it if you are really not sure.
Kaelyn:10:53 Yeah.
Rekka:10:53 But chances are you're pretty confident in this thing. You're proud of it. You, you want to send it out.
Kaelyn:10:57 I hope so.
Rekka:10:58 Yeah, you should be.
Kaelyn:10:59 So that's the story state of things. When you're ready, when it is the best possible version it can be and you can't do much more to it right now. The other side of things from besides story is mechanics and style and grammar. When is that ready? Now I will say acquisitions editor. I do not expect to get submissions that are perfectly copy edited. There's a reason we have copy editors. It's because those that's hard to do.
Rekka:11:30 Yeah.
Kaelyn:11:31 So that said, please use periods please capitalize. Please have a basic understanding of how commas work.
Rekka:11:44 Um, if you run this through like grammar check in word or you get Grammarly and you run through and you disagree with every suggestion, every suggestion, you probably need to reconsider your stylistic choices.
Kaelyn:11:59 Yes, definitely. So with knowing when your submission is ready in that regard, do basic writing checks, make sure that your grammar, punctuation, spelling is correct to the extent that you can get it. Like I said, no one is expecting a professional copy edit here, but watch for egregious errors. And I'm going to say something a little, I won't say controversial, the beginning of this is the most important part. If you can't, if you don't have time to comb through every single page of your manuscript, please for the love of God, at least do the first 20%. Um, because me the acquisitions editor, that's what I'm going to read first. And insider secret, I know people are doing that and I appreciate that. Now that said, if I get through your first 20% of your book and it devolves into, you know, misspelled words and abstract punctuation and you know, some really interesting uses of commas, I'm, that's gonna be a major red flag for me. So, but please pay extra special attention to the beginning of your book. Please, please proofread and closely check the first page of your book.
Rekka:13:22 And I'll say it again. If you haven't read your entire book out loud yet, do that. Like, that's,
Kaelyn:13:26 Yeah.
Rekka:13:26 That's a good step to um, to making it more legible and definitely catching things that you haven't seen because you've looked at it too much. I think it's always important at least once in your books, you know, existence, um, to read it aloud. And if major changes happen, then it's always good to read new sections.
Kaelyn:13:45 Absolutely.
Rekka:13:45 So here's a really good place where you're going to catch stuff where you went, oh, I didn't even realize I did that. And it'll make your editor a little less mad at you.
Kaelyn:13:52 Yeah. Um, one of the, you know, I think I've mentioned this on, on this podcast before, but I use what I call the Colin Coyle method. Colin's, the publisher at Parvus Press. And he always says, your first sentence is buying me your first paragraph, first paragraphs, buying me your first page. First page is buying me your first 10, first 10 buying me your first chapter. You are trying to get me to keep reading. Now part of that is story which, you know, I, I can't help you or offer advice on that in this context, but I can tell you that your grammar, punctuation and spelling is something that I'm going to be paying close attention to there. So -
Rekka:14:31 Yeah.
Kaelyn:14:32 Just please make sure, check the beginning of your book. That's very important. It's important throughout, but especially the beginning because that's the first impression you're making on me. Um, that's, you know, and you're going, well why is that such a big deal if you're going to get a copy editor? Because a couple things. One, it's setting the tone of your book. And I don't mean that in terms of story or style. I mean that in terms of what kind of a writer are you? Um, it's showing me that you're paying attention, that there's attention to detail and that's giving me a sense of what it's going to be like to work with you. Because if I'm getting a book through submissions and it's a mess in the first chapter, I'm going, well, this person doesn't care that much. I have other people here who put a lot of time and effort into getting this to a point that they want me to read it and this person just slapped some stuff together and sent it to me. That's, and it's wasting my time to now. So that's just gonna start off with leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
Rekka:15:37 Right. But then plus every strange choice or, um, you know, uncaught mistake is a potential like tripping point where an editor might get, it, might be enjoying the story, but then they get popped out because like the sentence doesn't actually finish and, you know, go straight to the next paragraph, um, without, you know, the second half of the last sentence or something like that where you go, oh wait, and then you're out of the book, you're back in your room and you're wondering if you want to keep going.
Kaelyn:16:06 I've had submissions where, um, I've had repeated paragraphs one right after on the first page, first page, repeated paragraphs. I've gotten ones that have really bad spelling errors in the first sentence. And it's not like they fat fingered a keyboard here, you know, like I've seen that and it's kinda like, alright, they were obviously just, you know, doing one last check through, accidentally leaned on the x. You know, it's, that's, that's fine. Um, but like first sentence spelling error is not, you know, that's not, it's not a good look for you to start with. Um, so please, you know, check, spend some time and do this. I know it can be boring. I know it can be a lot and I know it can be mind numbing,
Rekka:16:54 But if you don't want a publishing deal bad enough to put this effort into exactly. Because you're going to be doing this a lot. Like there are more edit versions to come.
Kaelyn:17:05 And that's what I mean when I say this is showing me what you're going to be like to look at. Because if I'm your editor and most any editor, I would hope you're not getting away with anything.
Rekka:17:16 Right.
Kaelyn:17:17 Um, if I put a note in your manuscript and you ignore it, that's going to be a problem. So it is a, it is a first impression. Your first page is trying to hook the, the editor, but it's also making a first impression. Um, so please pay attention to these things. Um, again, especially the beginning of the book, especially your first sentence. Um, because it does, you know, it's not like, oh well, whatever. It's just one little thing. No, it is showing so much about and what you would be like to work with.
Rekka:17:51 Right.
Kaelyn:17:52 It's very important please, I get hundreds of submissions every time we open for submission. So if it's a matter of the first person who couldn't be bothered to spellcheck their document
Rekka:18:05 And spellcheck is on by default in most cases, if it's giving you a red squiggly line, consider you spelled it wrong.
Kaelyn:18:11 Yes. Well assuming you know it's actually a word and not something -
Rekka:18:15 Right, yeah, I know we're talking genre fiction. So you know, the spelling of your characters name may always get a red squiggle, but that doesn't mean like turn off your perception of red squiggles. Like scan the documents, see what else is, you know, coming up as an error.
Kaelyn:18:29 Yeah. So if it's a choice between someone who couldn't be bothered to spell check the document and someone who clearly put a lot of time, work and effort into being careful about this, guess who I'm going to be more interested in working with?
Rekka:18:39 Right.
Kaelyn:18:39 Um, I will say, you know, and a big thing at Parvus is we're very into getting good stories. But if it's a good story from someone, that's going to be a nightmare, we don't want.
Rekka:18:51 Right.
Kaelyn:18:51 Um, a big part of this is figuring out can we work with this author? Do we want to work with this author because this is my time and my hours out of my life. So I'm not going to put that into something with someone that I don't want to work with.
Rekka:19:08 And there is a certain percentage of your decision that's going on, gut feeling. And so these kinds of obvious disregard for your time,
Kaelyn:19:17 Oh yeah, they're massive red flags.
Rekka:19:18 Massive red flags, and they're going to send your gut feeling.
Kaelyn:19:23 Exactly. Um, so your book is in the best possible state it can be You've spelled checked it, other people have read it, you're ready to go. So we're going to do more on a querying and how you find these places. Um, but, and again, for the purposes of this, we're lumping publishing houses and agents together.
Rekka:19:46 Right.
Kaelyn:19:47 Um, you query an agent, you submit to a publishing house, but it's tantamount to the same thing.
Rekka:19:53 Right.
Kaelyn:19:54 So what you're going to do is look for people that are open for considerations. For agents they'll say, I'm open for queries for publishing houses, they'll say, we're open for submissions. The first thing you want to do is do some research on this house or person.
Rekka:20:09 Right.
Kaelyn:20:10 Look at what they're interested in and where you will find this right off the bat is in their submissions guidelines,
Rekka:20:19 Right. Yes. Most of the time they will tell you exactly what they are not looking for and if it's in that list it means they are sick to death of it. And you are no exception to that rule.
Kaelyn:20:28 Yeah. Your book is probably not so special and interesting and unique that it's going to change their mind.
Rekka:20:34 Right. So if they say no zombies and no werewolves, no, vampire romances is just -
Kaelyn:20:39 Just don't.
Rekka:20:40 - don't, and you've written that, don't, don't go for that.
Kaelyn:20:43 Um, the other thing you should be doing though is looking at either, you know, other authors that the agent represents and the kind of stuff they write or in the case of the publishing house, the other things they've published. And just kind of see like where you would fit into this.
Rekka:20:58 Yeah.
Kaelyn:20:58 Do your research on these things. It's really important. Especially I would say, especially with publishing houses, you know, check them out, make sure that you know, this isn't some kind of predatory vanity press. Um, and with agents, um, good agents by the way, if you know they're interested in working with you, if you ask them, you know, can I talk to some of your other clients? They'll have no problem with that whatsoever.
Rekka:21:22 Because they don't want you to talk to other clients, you probably don't want that agent.
Kaelyn:21:26 That's a big red flag right there. Um, so, but submissions guidelines, what this is going to be is kind of two parts. One is what I'm looking for and what I'm not looking for, like the kinds of things that we're publishing. And then the other is, here's how I want you to get your submission together in order to present it to me.
Rekka:21:45 Yep.
Kaelyn:21:46 I think people do not take these seriously enough.
Rekka:21:52 Or it looks like a big overwhelming bit of text. So they just do the best they can. And they have a manuscript that they um, they have made sure is in a standard manuscript format and they just throw it on over.
Kaelyn:22:04 And why do they like what's so special about them? Why do they want it in this format? Because they're the one who's doing this and they get to say so, right?
Rekka:22:10 They get to say so and they probably have a good reason. Like this is worked out for them in the past. It makes their job a little bit easier and makes them less cranky when they approach the submissions, which is exactly what you want.
Kaelyn:22:21 But I will say their reasons for it are none of your business. If that's how they want this, then -
Rekka:22:26 It's not up for debate.
Kaelyn:22:27 It's not up for debate. And if you want to submit to them, that's how they do it. Um, I have had people write to me and say, well, I really don't want to do this because, and my answer is I don't care.
Rekka:22:40 Yeah.
Kaelyn:22:40 You know, like I write them back and go, well listen, you can submit however you want, but if you don't follow this submissions guidelines, there's a very good chance that this isn't getting looked at.
Rekka:22:48 Right.
Kaelyn:22:48 Um, so the other part of the submission guidelines are going to be do this, do this, don't do this. I want it in this format. Um, for publishing houses, I know for us we ask for a query letter and then your entire manuscript.
Rekka:23:05 Which is not 100% of the time common.
Kaelyn:23:09 Um, it depends. Yeah. You know, some, uh, I know a lot of agents now are that used to be a thing. Agents wanted your first a few chapters and a lot of them now are saying, I want your entire manuscript. Um, and this is kind of going into how it's easier to transfer digital files. Before agents didn't want your entire manuscript. They didn't want a hundred pages. They wanted the first few chapters.
Rekka:23:31 Right, because these were arriving in a mail room.
Kaelyn:23:32 Exactly. Now it's, you know, there's um, you know, you have like a submissions manager and it's really easy to go into. Um, we ask for, you know, your entire manuscript. I think a lot of publishing houses that do open submissions, we'll ask for your entire manuscript. A lot of agents are asking for entire manuscripts now, so if somebody asks for your entire manuscript, send the entire manuscript. One of the reasons that we do this is I want to know is this done?
Rekka:23:57 Yeah and does it end okay?
Kaelyn:24:01 Yeah, that's another -
Rekka:24:01 I mean, you may not make it that far.
Kaelyn:24:03 But well, if it's something I'm strongly considering, then I -
Rekka:24:06 You jumped to the end.
Kaelyn:24:08 I want to read it and you know, at least get an idea of where it's going, make sure it doesn't completely go off the rails. Um, but that's a question. You know, like when I, every time we open for submissions, I get at least a dozen or so that are like, here are the first five chapters of my book. And it's like, well, yup, out the door. But also the big thing is I'm wondering is, is this finished? Is this all you've written of the book? I'm not going to wait a year for you to finish writing this. Um, there will. So that's one thing, you know, they're gonna say, I want to these things, I want to query letter, I want the entire manuscript, I want a little bit of a bio from you. Maybe you know, that kind of stuff. Then there will be other guidelines with say a word count. Um, Parvus we have a 60,000 minimum for novels.
Rekka:24:59 Yup.
Kaelyn:24:59 And again, I constantly get emails going, mine's at 45. Is that okay? No, it's not.
Rekka:25:06 It's not 60.
Kaelyn:25:07 And is that less than 60?
Rekka:25:10 There's your answer then.
Kaelyn:25:10 No, it's not. Okay. Please don't go into this thinking I'm special.
Rekka:25:19 Truly, I am the exception to this unnecessary rule.
Kaelyn:25:23 Yeah. Mine's 45,000 words, but it's a really solid book and I think you guys should definitely take a look at that. And what that's saying to me is I do not want to take a look at this and I don't really want to work with this person. Yeah. Um, pay attention to the submissions guidelines. If they say they want anonymous submissions, make sure you have that.
Rekka:25:45 Yeah.
Kaelyn:25:46 You should have a version of your manuscript with all of your personal information scrubbed from it. Well how do they know how to get in touch with me then?
Rekka:25:54 Their system is set up.
Kaelyn:25:55 Don't worry about that. That's when you, you know, for us, for instance, our submissions manager, you have to register your new username. It's um, so we'll find all your information in there if we need to. We'll go look it up by manuscript ID and be like, okay, this is how I get in touch with this person. Don't worry, they'll figure out how to get in touch with you. They've done this before. Um, read the submissions guidelines, follow them. This is the easiest, silly thing you can do to immediately get yourself knocked out of consideration is not following the submissions guidelines. Why is that, Rekka?
Rekka:26:33 Because if you want to have a professional relationship with a publisher, you need to show them that you are professional. And the easiest way to do that right from the start is to follow the submissions guidelines and give them exactly what they're looking for and nothing they aren't. And also, you know, just not proving that you're going to be difficult at every stage of the process.
Kaelyn:26:57 Exactly. It's.
Rekka:26:58 Speaking of being difficult. Hey, as a publisher, will you sign an NDA before I send you my, my manuscript?
Kaelyn:27:06 Oh God. Yeah. Um, here's this is, I am not sure, [laughs] Rekka's watching me like make like very exasperated facial expressions and like -
Rekka:27:18 I can't see past your hands what youre expression.
Kaelyn:27:20 Like that are just like covering my face. Like, I don't know where this paranoia comes from. And in some cases that's the only way I can.
Rekka:27:33 Somewhere there's an urban myth or it's probably happened. But somebody sent a manuscript off to somebody, they said, no thank you. And then a book came out that was awfully similar. So that author of course assumes that it was stolen and maybe, you know, like I said, there's probably cases where it did happen that way, but an NDA isn't going to stop the publishing house from doing that anyway. This is why you research a publishing house before you submit.
Kaelyn:27:54 Yeah. I mean if, if that happens to you, then you've got amazing legal recourse because in this day and age, everything is digitally tracked.
Rekka:28:03 So that it's not like you're sending off sheets of paper, they just tear your name off the top.
Kaelyn:28:10 Um, don't make ridiculous, outlandish requests. If anyone emails me and says, can you sign this NDA? I'm not even going to respond to them.
Rekka:28:20 Right.
Kaelyn:28:20 That's like, and that's telling you how difficult they're going to be right off the bat. And plus that aparent level of paranoia is going to pervade through the entire process.
Rekka:28:28 But also it's showing me I don't trust you.
Kaelyn:28:30 Yeah.
Rekka:28:31 Why? Like hold on, why do you want to work with me?
Kaelyn:28:33 Right. Um, and there's a lot of trust that goes into what's gonna come next. Yes. And it's setting, well, I can't say it's setting a bad tone for a relationship because there isn't going to be your relationship at that point, but you really need to reevaluate what you're doing., if you think that everyone you need to send your book to your manuscript to, it needs to sign an NDA.
Rekka:29:02 A publisher sees so many books and if they have an open call for submission, they're looking to buy books. So if you have a great book, they're going to buy it from you. They're not going to steal it from you.
Kaelyn:29:13 Yeah. Because I mean alternatively we're just going to publish it as from this publisher? Who's going to be the author. So do I take it and do I take it and give it to another author? What would be the point of that? It's so don't, don't be obnoxious. I like, that's the only way I can come up with to describe that is that's borderline obnoxious. I'm sending these sort of things, making demands of the publisher and look, the power dynamic here is definitely a little weird. And if you're a writer, not great because the truth is you don't have much if you're doing an open submissions call. So don't send NDAs to people. Um, but yeah, and back to Rekka's point. This is showing me what it's going to be like to work with you. If you can't follow a set of directions that doesn't bode well for the time, money and investment we're going to put into you. For agentss it's the same thing. They're going to spend a lot of time trying to shop you around, talk you up, get you the best deal possible. And if you're going to make their lives miserable, you're maybe not someone when they want to be having as a client either. So the submission guidelines are there to make my life easier, but they're also there to show me a little about you and show me how you function. Show me if you can follow directions.
Rekka:30:35 And one thing I, I feel I need to say is like we make it sound like, you know, don't be difficult, don't whatever. It doesn't mean you're going to set up an expectation that this publisher can walk all over you. What you're showing them is your competence. So if you are competent enough to follow submissions guidelines in the first place and you're competent enough to write a good story that they want to buy, they will also expect that you are competent enough to stand up for your rights when it comes to negotiating contracts, et Cetera, et cetera. So don't feel that by not asserting yourself with, you know, various, um, you know, like standing your ground sort of mentalities at the beginning of this that you are going to end up like being the doormat for this publisher. That is not, that is not what we're trying to set up here. We're trying to set up a great working relationship
Kaelyn:31:22 And I will take this a step further and say, I'm not saying don't be afraid to ask questions if you have a question, um, you know, email them and just say, Hey, I'm, you know, what's best for me to do with this sort of thing. Um, now that said, before you do this, you should try to figure out if your answers in the submissions guidelines.
Rekka:31:43 Cause it's probably in the submissions guidelines.
Kaelyn:31:46 Um, one thing that I'm a little bit of a gray area about is like, well I read in your submissions guidelines that you're not taking things with werewolves in them, but my werewolves are in space and it's Scifi.
Rekka:32:00 Right.
Kaelyn:32:02 So,
Rekka:32:02 So if you don't understand that, they're like talking specifically say about urban paranormal romance and it's not that clear but like, you know, clarify. But.
Kaelyn:32:14 And I would also say, you know, if you want to email them, that's fine. Um, and to be honest with you, there's a good chance, you're not going to get a reply back. Um, but you can also put that in your query letter.
Rekka:32:25 Right.
Kaelyn:32:25 And you know,
Rekka:32:26 Just in a query letter -
Kaelyn:32:27 Yeah. We're going to talk about query letters next week and that's a good place to kind of make any sort of conditional kind of stuff that you want everyone aware of. Like, I know this title werewolves in it, but it's werewolves on Mars. That actually might make me go. Huh. All right. I'll take a look at that.
Rekka:32:46 Right. So, yeah, maybe not asking the question about like your specific story, but the questions about the submissions guidelines themselves.
Kaelyn:32:54 Absolutely.
Rekka:32:55 Send an email and say like, um, I'm looking at this email and I think there might be a typo in your like email address or something like that because it doesn't match the domain name, like, yeah, you can write an email about that.
Kaelyn:33:08 Just to clarify or you know, just to make sure like this is, um, I'm going to go on a little short tirade here right now, I apologize. When asking questions like this again, keep in mind how many emails and how much stuff is going on. Please take the time to actually compose an email. Um, I don't know if everyone, I think most people probably feel the same way with this with me, and I don't know if this is me being overly fussy, but I hate when I get emails that are just, hey, so like what about this thing? And that's it.
Rekka:33:45 Yeah. Like keep in mind that no, this is not your official submission. This is probably talking to somebody who might review your submission as a professional corresponds.
Kaelyn:33:53 This is not, you're not sending me a text or a DM. This is, hi Kaelyn. You know, I'm so and so. I'm, I'm interested in submitting to you. I just had this one question because I'm getting ready to submit and I don't want to get disqualified for something silly,
Rekka:34:10 Right. I,
Kaelyn:34:13 I don't know if it's just a pet peeve of mine if it's just, you know, something that really sets my hackles up is when I get emails that -
Rekka:34:23 It's like one line and it's right to the question and it just comes off as rude and demanding.
Kaelyn:34:28 Demanding is exactly that, right? Like, hey, tell me about this. Like, no, first of all go read the submissions guidelines second, like take some time and compose an email for me. You know, I'm not saying this has to be, you know, the equivalent of the Queen's invitation.
Rekka:34:43 I mean, this isn't a query letter itself. You don't have to worry too much about it, but just be nice, you know, like -
Kaelyn:34:48 Like you would any other professional setting,
Rekka:34:50 To Whom It May Concern if you don't know who you're writing to, exactly. And say I'm reviewing - like, here's what I'm doing, here's my question. I appreciate your time and answering it.
Kaelyn:34:59 Yeah.
Rekka:34:59 And sign off professionally.
Kaelyn:35:01 It doesn't need to be paragraphs. Please don't make a paragraphs. Um, but think about, you know, if you were interviewing or applying for a job, same thing. This is a professional setting.
Rekka:35:09 Let me tell you people still, you know, I've interviewed people and I have still got emails like that.
Kaelyn:35:13 No. And I mean, I'm sure you know, there's, it's, it's systemic of, you know, the online, it's symptoms of the culture, unfortunately. Um, but that is, that's another thing that is gonna make me go like, oh my God, this person, why do, why would you send this to me? Um, so just be conscious, be aware of this as a professional interaction.
Rekka:35:38 Yeah.
Kaelyn:35:38 So that's getting your submission ready. Um, do your research, do your spell checks. Um, talk to people that you know, can maybe point you in the right direction and follow the submissions guidelines. It is the smallest thing you can do to get yourself removed from consideration unnecessarily.
Rekka:36:03 It's really surprising what a fight people will put up when it's not that much effort.
Kaelyn:36:08 Yeah. And one thing I will say also is, um, when I say research, especially publishing houses agents as well and especially publishing houses is check for context. Yes, maybe what you're writing falls within the submissions guidelines, but make sure it is actually something that you think they'd be interested in publishing. Um, can I tell a story that's slightly inappropriate?
Rekka:36:35 I mean we can cut it later or if I, if I go, you know, I don't like this story.
Kaelyn:36:39 I got a submission once that was an epic, you know, high epic fantasy and it was, you know, very sword and shield like, um, I have no, I don't remember anything about what it was about because all I remember is within the first two pages I got lengthy graphic description of three different men's penises.
Rekka:37:04 Hmm.
Kaelyn:37:07 Extolling the virtues of each of them. And, and I'm reading this going, this person is not a bad writer. And this sounded like this was maybe an interesting story. I, but no.
Rekka:37:20 However I'm done.
Kaelyn:37:21 I'm burning this, I'm going to print it out just so I can burn it. Um, so that's just another thing.
Rekka:37:28 So know your audience.
Kaelyn:37:29 No, that's exactly. Yeah. Know your audience. And that's a good thing to keep in mind while researching publishing houses, if they don't seem like they're interested in having stories with graphic descriptions of male genitalia crammed into the first 300 words the book,
Rekka:37:48 I mean maybe pick up one of their other books and see if that's in there.
Kaelyn:37:52 Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're gonna, if you're going to go for something then like that, I mean one may be don't, but two, you know, make sure -
Rekka:37:59 There's an audience for it somewhere, you've just got to look a little harder.
Kaelyn:38:01 Exactly. And you know, so be, be aware of that kind of thing. So, um, you know, that's, I think that's a good.
Rekka:38:08 We can end on the penises.
Kaelyn:38:09 On the penis story. Cause I don't know where else to go from there.
Rekka:38:14 There's no where to go from there.
Kaelyn:38:15 No where to go from that.
Rekka:38:17 Mic dropped, podcast is over.
Kaelyn:38:19 We're done. Good luck everyone. Uh, no. So that's um, you know, that's prepping your submissions on next week. We're doing query letters.
Rekka:38:26 Yup.
Kaelyn:38:27 Um, I'm excited for that one too.
Rekka:38:28 Yes. Query letters is a more artistic expression of following the submissions guidelines because -
Kaelyn:38:33 Well for you, for me it's, you know, okay, I've got an agenda.
Rekka:38:36 Okay, fair. Alright. So up next week there's a tease.
Kaelyn:38:42 Next week Kaelynand Rekka duke it out over query letters.
Rekka:38:45 And again it is next week because for submission September we are doing weekly episodes, maybe even more depending on how things go. So, um, yeah, look forward to that and let us know if you have any funny penis submission story is or otherwise.
Kaelyn:39:00 Yeah. Like, you know, um, so we're recording a lot of these in advance, but you know, we did talk about, we'd mentioned in the previous episode, we did talk about, you know, we got some questions and stuff. We'd be very happy to do a wrap up episode. Yeah. And kind of maybe if there's a few topics, pick those and kind of talk about, flush them out a little more.
Rekka:39:18 Yeah.
Kaelyn:39:18 Um, yeah, we're, I'm having such a great time with this [laughs] Rekka's giving me a look right now because I must have like Harley Quinn like giant crazy eyes right now. Um, cause I am just giddy over getting to, uh, getting to talk about this stuff. So, um, anyway, uh, thank you you for listening. We'll see you next week. In the meantime, you can hit us up on the socials as usual,
Rekka:39:42 Twitter at @WMBcast, patreon.com/WMBcast, Instagram @WMBcast. And of course you can find wmbcast.com and listen to all the old episodes or if you are new, you can go back and find some of your new favorite episodes.
Kaelyn:40:02 Thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you next week, which that's exciting to say.
Rekka:40:06 Oh my gosh. Like don't get used to this.
Kaelyn:40:08 No.
Rekka:40:08 I don't think we can sustain this pace, especially with the cost of the train fare over here. So thanks everyone for listening in and next week: Query letters,
Kaelyn:40:17 Query letters. We'll see you there. Bye.