Episodes
Tuesday Aug 20, 2019
Episode 11: Your Life Changes, Except It Doesn't - The Debut Author
Tuesday Aug 20, 2019
Tuesday Aug 20, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
This week, we’re talking about a special state of being: The Debut Author. Who are these mysterious creatures, caught between a new chapter of their lives and the rest of their careers? What do the fates and their futures have in store for them? And how the heck do you kill all of this time waiting for your book to be released?? Being a debut author is uncharted waters for most, how exactly do you navigate this? We talk about all of these things, yell about cookies, and Kaelyn nearly dies of shock after Rekka makes a sports analogy mid-episode.
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your thoughts on Amazon’s upcoming Lord of the Rings Series.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Rekka:00:00 Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka Jay. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:08 And I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And today we're talking about debut authors, uh, which Rekka still is one.
Rekka:00:19 Technically.
Kaelyn:00:20 As of when this is being released. But yeah, not for much longer now for much longer than two weeks.
Kaelyn:00:26 I will no longer be a debut author and we'll have to hang up that hat. So this episode was inspired. Well, we already had the idea to do an episode on being a debut author because I've seen it come up a lot and since we agreed that we would do that, it came up a few more times. Um, @ka_doore - K.A. Door, who is the author of the Perfect Assassin, did a tweet thread about the handbook that needs to be written for debut authors.
Kaelyn:00:54 Someone should handle that.
Kaelyn:00:55 Yes. And um, Kai did offer that. If anyone would like to pay her to take two weeks off of work, she would happily write that handbook. And so some of our topic points were taken right out of that. And then Melissa Caru, author of The Tethered Mage @MelissaCaru also sort of talked about what an odd sensation it is to be a debut author. So those were two that I wanted to just shout out and thank for, um, you know, just kind of guiding our conversation a little bit. And also, you know, like say, hey, we see you. You know, cause as you'll hear in this episode, sometimes you're just like, what am I doing? Who, who am I now that I have a book deal and, and what am I getting into.
Kaelyn:01:40 It's both an identity and existential crisis.
Rekka:01:43 And it's a big to do list as well. So, um, we talk about the tasks that you need to accomplish, the things your publisher will be doing. How would it talk to your publisher and your agent during this time when you feel like maybe they're just busy and they don't have time for you because they're supposed to be doing something and you shouldn't be bothering them. Stuff like that. And then also like how to feel and how not to feel and how to distract yourself from your feelings.
Kaelyn:02:04 Yeah. So, um, we hope you enjoyed the episode and by the way, stick around through the end of it because we have some news announcement type thing and then also we have a giveaway the end of the episode. Um, so, uh, stick around. Take a listen there and um, we hope that you enjoy Episode 11: Debut Authors
Kaelyn:02:32 We don't have the material to make cookies.
Rekka:02:32 We're going to grab stuff out of the kitchen.
Kaelyn:02:46 Rekka, how long have you known me now? YOu can't be like, oh, cookies and then not have cookies for me.
Rekka:02:51 We'll make cookies when we're done.
Kaelyn:02:53 God dammit, now I want a cookie.
Rekka:02:56 Let's get through these episodes and earn our cookies.
Kaelyn:02:58 Fine.
Rekka:02:59 Okay.
Kaelyn:02:59 But only because I like you.
Rekka:03:01 My idea for today was to talk about what life is either going to be like if you are a, uh, a newly signed author or what life is like if you are on your way to your first release stage or what life was like if you are listening and, and feeling these feels in retrospect.
Kaelyn:03:25 There's a lot of feelings going around here.
Rekka:03:27 I'm trying not to make this one like a tear jerker or my own sob story, but there is the potential for some feelings and having to talk about them.
Kaelyn:03:38 Hey, look feelings, feelings are okay, feelingare things.
Rekka:03:42 Are they though?
Kaelyn:03:44 I mean I don't have them personally, but I'm told that -
Rekka:03:48 I just feel like life would be easier without them.
Kaelyn:03:51 It is, it definitely is.
Rekka:03:54 Um, I tried to put my feelings in books and not contain them in my human self.
Kaelyn:04:00 Well that's great because then we keep getting books out of you. So as long as-
Rekka:04:04 It does work -
Kaelyn:04:05 As long as you keep uh, on that track, I'm happy. Um, so yeah, we're talking about, you know, what happens over the course of getting signed your pre-release and then your book coming out and what your, your life changes if you will or lack thereof. In some cases.
Rekka:04:22 Things are going to change except they also kind of aren't.
Kaelyn:04:25 Yes.
Rekka:04:26 Um, so when you have signed your book deal, unless you are an outlier, you don't get to quit your day job.
Kaelyn:04:35 I mean that would have to be one hell of an advance.
Rekka:04:37 It would. And considering you probably only get a portion of it when you first signed the contract, it would really have to be a hell of an advance because now whatever that is, if you were to quit your day job would have to last you probably like 18 months.
Kaelyn:04:50 Well, here's, here's, I'll take it a step farther. If you have an advance that would allow you to quit your day job, you're probably not a debut author.
Rekka:05:00 Right. Or, or somehow you got a really good agent -
Kaelyn:05:04 Or you're Robert Mueller.
Rekka:05:05 Is that his debut?
Kaelyn:05:08 Well No, I mean like, you know, if he gets a book deal he's going to get -
Rekka:05:13 Yeah.
Kaelyn:05:13 I'm sure he'll be getting a multimillion dollar advance.
Rekka:05:16 Anyway, the um the advance you get is not going to allow you in 999 cases out of a thousand is not going to allow you to quit your day job. So your day to day life doesn't change except now you are a signed author and you have signed author responsibilities. You thought your manuscipt was done. Let me tell you, your manuscript's not done yet.
Kaelyn:05:42 Also, if you thought your manuscript was done, please go back and listen to the previous 10 episodes of this.
Rekka:05:47 Right. So there's more work to do on your manuscript. You will be, um, meeting and starting to work with your editor at your publisher. And um, you'll probably start to talk to different people at the publisher who are going to help with the launch. Uh, as you get closer to that. And so we just want to kinda list and you know, topic by topic, go over what kind of things you need to be expecting.
Kaelyn:06:16 Yeah. So we won't spend too much time on like the meeting with your editor kind of thing because I'm, we did a lot of that in episode three for the um, you know, sort of walking you through the process, but you'll meet your, you know, meet your editor officially if you haven't already. Chances are, you've probably talked to someone before this, um, sit down and get a timeline out, get a, you know, we expected this by this date, which again will probably be in your contract, read your contract. Um, what the main thing that you're going to kind of have to pay attention to before that leading up to this is marketing and promotion and your publisher should be handling a lot of that. Have a plan. Again, this is probably hopefully something you talked about before you sign with them. It might even be things in your contract.
Rekka:06:59 Which would be good because then you have it to reference and everyone has signed the agreement that these are the dates and the, and the things that are going to happen and the expectations for the marketing.
Kaelyn:07:13 Yeah. So leading up to your book release. Um, so you might be going, okay, well that's what like my publisher's doing, like, but I'm not, you know, I'm not buying ads and doing, uh, you know, marketing stuff. But you might be recruited to appear at different events or readings. Um, you might be asked to do like some promotional stuff, you know, interviews or things of that nature.
Rekka:07:39 Mmmhmm, so the other thing that you can be doing, you know, like up to this point, when you were a drafting author and you were writing your first book and you were on submission, if you had any presence on social media at all, it was probably related to like, oh, this is so hard. Or you know, commiserating with other writers and that sort of thing. And now you are an author with a publishing contract and you need to start thinking about how to get future readers onto your social media. So that's something you can sort of be doing is, um, looking at ways that you can build your platform for readers as well as, you know, your fellow writers or just your friends or the companies that you followed or whatever was your Twitter before. If you haven't started to cultivate it toward your writing presence, then you might want to start to like reconfigure how you talk on social media, not as in like become someone fake, start to talk about different things. Um, start to, you know, the process of launch and -
Kaelyn:08:47 Keep everyone up to date with you know, what's going on with you. Um, one thing is it's, it's just nice to see, I really enjoy seeing people that I know or work with, you know, saying like, oh, it's this many weeks or I just got this back and it's, it's nice. It's a way of, you know, kind of, because this is a community of people you probably got a lot of support from over the years. They should want to cheer you on.
Rekka:09:13 Right.
Kaelyn:09:13 Um, but also it's just kind of one of those, and you know, it depends on how big of a following you have, obviously, but just keeping the reminders going that like, I have this book coming out.
Rekka:09:27 Right, because eventually you can do a cover reveal. You can, you know, tweet that and then pin it to the top of your feed. And now when someone goes to your Twitter profile, you've got your preorder link at the top. Um, now in your bio you can say the release dates and, um, you know, if you've got a short link, you can put that there. Your banner can now have your cover art on it. You know, now you see, you start to like turn this into sort of a funnel for somebody who appears at your profile for the first time. They know exactly how to find your book because you've made it easy for them. Part of your half of the marketing is just keeping up your presence and making it easy for people who find you to also find your books. Um, this does not mean that three times a day you need to tweet pre-order my book, preorder my book, pre-order my book. You're -
Kaelyn:10:20 Oh please, don't do that.
Rekka:10:21 You're going to chase people away with that.
Kaelyn:10:22 You are. Yeah. It's, um, you know, when something comes up or you know, something changes or you have news, it's always a nice little time to be like, Hey, I've got this book coming out also.
Rekka:10:32 So you have this publishing deal and you're talking about it on Twitter. Um, you know, you're not revealing anything that's, you know, secret to your contract or anything like that, but you are talking about the process and you're sharing it with people. And those people may be writers. Those people might be future readers. Um, they might be friends, but in the rest of your life, since you didn't get to quit your day job, um, you might be tempted to tell your coworkers about your new book or, uh, people at the grocery store, et Cetera.
Kaelyn:11:01 Random people in passing.
Rekka:11:05 Random people. That impulse may fade rather quickly. When you get to the same question from every single one of them thing, which was how much money did you make or when's the movie come out? Which is a great way of saying, I don't plan to read your book. I just want to know when you're famous. I just want to be able to say I knew you. Um, yeah, those, those are the types of questions you're going to get from people who don't really know how to engage. My, uh, my coworkers. Um, the one who was most excited for me basically said, so you don't need this place at all anymore and well, not quite.
Kaelyn:11:39 They don't know how things work.
Rekka:11:41 And I believe there is a perception because I left that job. I believe there's a perception that people thought I left it to go become a full time writer. And while that would be absolutely wonderful, that is not reality that I ever expect to come true of being able to support myself fully on my writing without pulling some serious hustle and probably working harder than I do now to market the self published books.
Kaelyn:12:06 Give us all of the words Rekka.
Rekka:12:08 Yes, and Parvus will be clamoring and say, no, you can't self publish that. We want that. So, um, so that is, that's like a weird realm that you're going to exist in. You want to effusively bubble over with this news and it's not going to be taken exactly how you mean it from a lot of people. Like, um, just to warn you, there are people who are going to think you're bragging. There's that, going back to that perception that you can now quit your day job and all this kind of stuff. People might think you're bragging because they don't understand what really hasn't changed all that much. Your book is going to come out, but, um, it doesn't mean that you're going to start driving a Tesla. I mean like those big advances, that's what people see because those are the ones that make the news.
Kaelyn:12:51 Yeah.
Rekka:12:51 So that's what people might perceive that you are um, expressing when really, you know, like part of it is your excitement. Part of it is your relief because you know, you worked really hard and yes this is a good book and yes someone does want to publish it.
Kaelyn:13:07 You know, at the end of the day this is, this is hard to say. Your coworkers, if they're good people will say, that's great, congratulations. When does it come out? Oh, I'd love to preorder a copy as far as they're concerned, that's all they need to-
Rekka:13:16 Right. That conversation was a moment in time for them where it was like this is your new brain space where all you can think about is wanting to talk about this book all the time.
Kaelyn:13:27 So just, you know, be aware that like, yes, this is life changing for you. For other people it's something that they're aware of and they're happy for you about, but it doesn't really mean that much to them.
Rekka:13:38 And to that point, even within like the social media circles where you do have a lot more support, like you'll announce your book cover reveal and you'll get maybe a little bustle of attention that day, but it's going to fade similarly because not everyone has room on their plate to obsess over your book the way you do.
Kaelyn:13:57 Exactly.
Rekka:13:57 And most people don't even want to. And most people are doing their own thing and have their own obsessions. And so that can lead to almost like a dysphoria about the process. It feels very strange because yes, it's happening, but there's nothing to tell people today that isn't the same thing you told them yesterday and it can feel, it can actually start to feel a little bit extra lonely, um, because you feel like everything should be great, but you're slightly disappointed because you can't talk about it. It's actually easier to talk about how you are still searching for an agent or a publisher than it is to say, I am still working on my copy editor.
Kaelyn:14:36 Well, there's more people to commiserate that the pool every time. This is the thing is every time you hit a success -
Rekka:14:43 Like a career point -
Kaelyn:14:44 You're taking another step up the pyramid, if you want to think of it that way. And there's coming -
Rekka:14:49 You were a small fish in a big, in a smaller pond,
Kaelyn:14:52 There's fewer and fewer people every step up. So, you know, when everyone's at the, you know, in the pond together going, I'm just trying to get my, well, let's say that's the ocean.
Rekka:15:04 [laughs] Yeah.
Kaelyn:15:05 I'm just trying to finish my book. Then you go to the, I finished my book. I'm just trying to get an agent. Then you get the agent, then you're just trying to get a publisher to pick it up. Then you get it published. Then every success narrows the field of people that you're in the same boat at.
Rekka:15:21 That's right. It's like a funnel.
Kaelyn:15:23 Yeah, exactly.
Rekka:15:24 And there's a lot of filters and the folks who were with you in the ocean aren't necessarily going to follow you into your little Koi pond if you wanna, you know, talk about like making it all the way to the end of it.
Kaelyn:15:37 Oh, it's definitely a Koi pond.
Rekka:15:39 Um, goldfish bowl?
Kaelyn:15:41 I like the Koi pond.
Rekka:15:42 Yeah.
Kaelyn:15:42 Some flowers in there, a little water for landscaping, some pretty fish, nice plants.
Rekka:15:48 Um, so and too that, um, you know, along with that comes the imposter syndrome. And the funny thing is, and I've heard this mentioned many times, is that the imposter syndrome hits harder the more success you find.
Kaelyn:16:05 I was going to say actually this is part one of the impostor syndrome.
Rekka:16:08 Well, yeah.
Kaelyn:16:09 Before you're published.
Rekka:16:10 Yeah. Um, it's part of a whole process of, I think part of it is I feel like I should have eyes on me, but things haven't really changed all that much. Therefore I must be bad. That's kind of what posture and you know, like there's that game, um, where you like do the fortune cookie thing and you end every fortune cookie with in bed.
Kaelyn:16:31 Yes.
Rekka:16:32 Imposter Syndrome is that, but it ends every thought you have with therefore, I am a bad person and a bad writer and my books are bad and no one likes me. It's a very long version of the -
Kaelyn:16:43 That, that's a big one -
Rekka:16:45 But it's kind of what it's like. Um, things that are normal, things that everyone is experiencing end with this thought of, therefore I am bad and I should feel bad.
Kaelyn:16:56 Um, something about writers, and I'm going to say this and I don't mean it in the like re- bad reality star type way. Writers need attention. And while I know that sounds like a petulant child, I don't mean it in that way. I mean that this is such a vulnerable thing to do. So when I say need attention, I mean, need encouragement -
Rekka:17:26 We need a cheer squad.
Kaelyn:17:26 and attention and people going, you're doing the right thing because for a debut author, you don't know if you're doing the right thing. This has never happened before. So it's nerve wracking because it's, you're like, yes, you're out of the ocean, but now you're in like Lake Michigan and at least you knew what was going on in the ocean. So being you feel adrift a little bit. So getting attention, when I say that means encouragement, discussions, talks and plans about things. Just attention on you and your book because it makes writers think like, okay, yeah, I got this. We're good here.
Rekka:18:03 Yeah. And his frequent check-ins as you can get from your publisher, like encourage them to do that because it does, it just makes them, you know, cause it can get really quiet.
Kaelyn:18:11 I -
Rekka:18:12 They're part of the job.
Kaelyn:18:12 I mean, I will say my authors, you know, depending on their personality, some of them are happy just being off in little author world forever. And um, you know, only talking when we need to, but like a bunch of them, like I, I email them every other week, every week or so, and just be like, hey, how's everything going? Need anything, you know, how's the next book coming? Um, one because I like all of my authors and I like to hear from them, um, too. But I think authors have a thing a lot of times that they don't want to bother their editor too much. And like that's nonsense. You should absolutely, every time there's a problem, be talking to your editor. But, so I always try to do that just to open the door for like I'm having this problem!
Rekka:18:55 And if you have an agent, um, that you have another layer of like somebody that can be part of your process or, or help reassure you in these like scary, quiet moments and things like that. And so, um, the bigger the team of people that you work directly with on your books, I think the better you'll feel because you know, if, if you can set up a rapport with your agent or your editor or something like that where you are in touch pretty frequently. And also on that note, like know what you want out of the relationship from the start and -
Kaelyn:19:26 I was just going to say that before you, you know, really get into this, um, a good conversation to have with your agent and with your editor, especially your editor because you know, your agent, that's a different relationship. They work for you. They, um, your editor technically also works for you, but it's a different, it's a different relationship with them.
Rekka:19:46 There's a power balance there.
Kaelyn:19:47 So having a quick conversation of like, you know, check-ins, how much communication, um, you know, I always tell my authors, like, if you need something, email me just, or you can send me a text, you can DM me on Twitter, whatever is easiest for you. Um, just, you know, I'm fine with you being in constant communication. It doesn't have to be relegated to our scheduled calls. Um, some editors, you know, understandably don't, you know, want that, they'll have more boundary set. Um, I on the other hand, have no boundaries. So, um, yeah, so that's, I mean, that's most of the pre-stuff.
Rekka:20:26 Yeah. Um, and just further on that note, like don't pretend to be a super altogether, not at all anxious author, and then suddenly 10 months into the process or, or don't just suddenly have a breakdown on them. Like, be okay with like talking to them whenever you want to -
Kaelyn:20:46 Accept that this is going to be a stressful process and is going to put you in a very vulnerable position. Because if you try to keep up a brave face the entire time, you're going to lose your mind.
Rekka:20:57 You have allies in this now, that's what comes with the publishing contract. So, um, don't be afraid to reach out to them, if you have questions.
Kaelyn:21:05 It's a skill to acquire as well. But you know, eventually your book is going to come out. So then that's going to come with a whole other separate set of anxieties.
Rekka:21:15 You will have been getting busy as your book is approaching. And um, what I wanted to also point out is that like in these long stretches of silence, you can be finding your community also by going to conferences. And we've talked about this a little bit, I think in episode, uh, the first two episodes we talked about, things you can be doing while you wait.
Kaelyn:21:40 Oh yeah. Episode three after publication. We did a lot of, um, stuff about things that, you know, if you want, if you're interested, we talk a lot about that, but we, you know, we'll discuss it here, again, maybe go into a little more detail.
Rekka:21:51 Yeah, it's just, you know, there are other writers who are at these stages. They're at every stage of the process and these are the people that are going to understand what you're going through the most. So, um, you know, find them at the conferences, friend them on Twitter and then it won't be quite as lonely through this whole process.
Kaelyn:22:10 But also at these conferences and conventions that is a chance to promote yourself and your book.
Rekka:22:15 Yes.
Kaelyn:22:15 Going to these and signing up, you know, sign up for a panel or depending if they do that, do a reading. Um, first of all, they're a lot of fun and it's a really good experience to have. But I think, um, it, it gives you an idea of how hard it is to get up and talk about these things and you know, crowds and stagefright aside, this is something Rekka and I keep discovering when we're working on this, it's hard to organize your thoughts on this topic. Um, I always think that giving presentations about things or discussing them is a great way to sort of force yourself to sit down and confront realities.
Rekka:22:55 And one of the things you're going to be doing at this point when you're waiting for your book to come out is preparing these sort of like nonfiction autobiographical sort of stories.
Kaelyn:23:05 Oh yeah.
Rekka:23:05 And doing presentations at conferences is a great way to get in the mindset of nonfiction because it is a huge shift. I had a really hard time when I was writing the essays for Flotsam is released all the blog appearances and that sort of thing. I had a huge mind block of being able to go from nonfiction to fiction. It's a, it's a skill to develop and it's not the same as writing fiction.
Kaelyn:23:33 No, and I mean I will say as someone who, uh, prepares information like that for our releases writing, it sounds like it should be such an easy thing. I just need write my biography and tell a couple, you know, things about myself. Well, here's one thing maybe a lot of people don't consider. You really need about five versions of your, about me.
Rekka:23:56 Yes.
Kaelyn:23:56 One that is literally two sentences, like the kind that can just be stuck in the end of a magazine thing. One that's maybe a paragraph one that's two paragraphs, one that is considerably longer and more detailed and that's for if somebody really needs a lot of information about you, where you the author or the focus of everything. And then one that is kind of like a press release and that's the one that, it's funny cause I said press release, but it's actually what you're going to say out loud to people real quick about yourself. Think of it as if you're in an interview and like, so introduce yourself, introduce herself. I'm, you know, in my case it's, I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press and I also head up our editorial group and then you have to, the end of it should factor into what about you is relevant to the conversation, to the conversation that's taking place.
Rekka:24:52 And it should sound natural.
Kaelyn:24:53 Yes.
Rekka:24:54 Because, um, when you say these out loud, it's very different from writing for them and let them -
Kaelyn:24:58 Practice them. I mean you heard I just did mine right there and I have that memorized at this point. It's, it comes, it's, it's like a reflex now.
Rekka:25:08 Yeah. And that's important because you know, you get frazzled, you might, um, you know, sit down and they've got the mic running already, you, but you realize like you just sat down on the end of your sweatshirt or something like that and you've got to readjust and they're already asking you to introduce yourself. So like these things that are practiced ahead of time, and I don't mean to make it sound like you're regurgitating it by rote, but you want to be comfortable so that, um, you know, the simplest things aren't difficult in that moment because, you know, you'll need to focus on the interview questions, you'll need to focus on, you know, whatever the topic is. So, um -
Kaelyn:25:46 Get into this mindset where you are an author and you need to be able to communicate that quickly, effectively. And as a reflex, it will take a while to get used to that. Um, when I first started with Parvus, I did actually, this is, this is a good example. Um, I was just very, I won't say shy, but like people would, you know, I'd introduce myself and say on the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press, oh, that's so cool. I'm like, yeah, you know, it's not a big deal. The thing is it is a big deal and I should not have said that. But you want to, I don't want to say come off as humble, but like I personally get uncomfortable when people are like impressed with me and I think that's -
Rekka:26:33 A great way to deflect that without actually deflecting it is to say, yeah, I'm super excited about it. So it's like you are appreciative and grateful for what you have, but also like acknowledge that it's an awesome thing. Yeah. So that's something to like maybe, you know, put in your pocket for getting compliments is don't deflect compliments. Like if you were a football player and someone passed you the ball, you would not deflect it and what you want in -
Kaelyn:26:58 Rekka, was that a sports analogy??
Rekka:26:59 I, I, I've watched like a bunch of football in the past or -
Kaelyn:27:05 Oh my what? Oh, oh boy!
Rekka:27:07 Don't ask me to make a baseball analogy. I'm falling asleep because it's gone on too long.
Kaelyn:27:12 I'm sorry. We need to stop for a second listeners because I am, I'm so happy right now.
Rekka:27:20 Who says I'm going to watch football this fall?
Kaelyn:27:22 No, we're going to watch football now.
Rekka:27:25 Sorry, this is the end of the episodes. We're going to take a break. What is it? August through February and then we'll be back in March.
Kaelyn:27:31 My world has been rocked, you know, in the best of ways. Anyway -
Rekka:27:34 Don't deflect compliments because that is what you want and if you keep deflecting them, people will stop giving them to you.
Kaelyn:27:40 But I mean in my case I like, you know, and it was a mind shift. It was the, you know, I have to get myself into the like, Oh Haha. It's no big deal. Get away from that. And like now people were like, oh wow, that's really cool. Do you like it? I love it. It's a lot of work, but I really enjoy it. You know, don't you know, you can, there are ways to roll into it to say thank you. I'm really excited. Thank you. It's a lot of work. But I love doing it, you know -
Rekka:28:04 So, so, but like here's the thought. That person is excited about what you just told them. This is a great time to pitch a book at the same time. So by deflecting it, you end the conversation. This is like Improv. Yes and, not no.
Kaelyn:28:21 [laughs]
Rekka:28:21 You know, so that's not sports ball referencing but I've never done it.
Kaelyn:28:27 I still, I don't know what I've said for the last, I'm going to have to go back and listen to this and find out what I actually said because I'm still in a daze from -
Rekka:28:34 No, you're good. You're good. Um, yeah. So you want to keep the conversation moving, especially if this person is now interested and enthusiastic because as an author you have a chance to tell them about your story. As an editor, you have a chance to tell them about your, you know, your upcoming calendar. These are not people that you want to say. Yeah. It was great talking to you by like, you know, when you're, when you aren't prepared to have these conversations ahead of time, that's what happens. You kind of like end up closed up because you realize, oh I should be saying-
Kaelyn:29:08 Words!
Rekka:29:08 Sure, nevermind they left you know, so we're good with words but I'm talking out loud is a switch. A nonfiction is a switch and honestly now you need to be moving into marketing mode. You're pitching yourself, you're pitching your book, you're putting on the personality of the author you want to become.
Kaelyn:29:28 So Rekka, real quick, you went to Reader Con recently.
Rekka:29:31 I did.
Kaelyn:29:32 And if you don't mind talking about it.
Rekka:29:34 Yes. What did, what did we do leading up to Reader Con and this is to imagine that like Kaelyn would call me up because I had a three hour drive to Reader Con and I had expressed to her a couple of days before that it was a little nervous. I realized I was going to be on a podcast and um, so I knew I was going to be interviewed. I knew I was going to meet new people and that someone was going to turn to me and say, tell me about your book. And I have been so busy with lots of editing and lots of other things. And my, and the tricky part about having a second book coming out is that you kind of also have to pitch the first book because it's -
Kaelyn:30:12 You've got work that in a little bit.
Rekka:30:12 I suddenly said to Kaelyn, um, a few days before Reader Con kind of like, oh, I should be thinking about my pitch. And Kaelyn said, this sounds like an opportunity for me to dig in my dress up box and put on mustaches and hats and pretend to be someone else.
Kaelyn:30:28 One of them was a tutu.
Rekka:30:30 I like to imagine that you did dress up for each of these voices that you assumed. She called me while I was on the road to Reader Con it'a a three and a half hour, a little bit less. I think it was a three hour drive and she called me up with a different accent every time pretending in character to be somebody who was calling me for an interview or a newspaper clip -
Kaelyn:30:53 Or somebody at the convention, you know -
Rekka:30:55 BUt it was funny because you, you were so in character and I'm like, who is this person that just calls me up out of the blue and asks me to tell them.
Kaelyn:31:02 Why are you laughing at me?
Rekka:31:04 People don't -
Kaelyn:31:04 You don't laugh at people that want you talk to you.
Rekka:31:07 So I would be giggling awkwardly and Kaelyn would be like, I don't understand what's going on.
Kaelyn:31:12 Is there something funny happening. Is this a humorous book?
Rekka:31:15 So Kaelyn's Scottish accent, Russian accent. And what was the last one?
Kaelyn:31:22 Did I do?
Rekka:31:22 Transylvanian or something?
Kaelyn:31:24 I thought I did my Bronx accent.
Rekka:31:26 I don't think you did in New York.
Kaelyn:31:27 North Jersey?
Rekka:31:28 No. No.
Kaelyn:31:29 Okay. I don't remember.
Rekka:31:31 I, I would have given you like credit for authenticity based on your location. We had a few different accents going on. Some, some were more distracting than others. And -
Kaelyn:31:44 But see that's a test because things will be distracting us.
Rekka:31:47 The, yes, exactly. So she made me not memorize but sort of outline my -
Kaelyn:31:54 Bullet points.
Rekka:31:55 My book's marketing in my head so that when she asked me about it each time I told her it was different.
Kaelyn:32:00 And it was natural. It wasn't, uh.
Rekka:32:03 You want it conversational because otherwise it sounds like it wasn't a script that you had memorized otherwise it's a book report or something.
Kaelyn:32:09 Exactly, yeah. It's um, it's your back copy. So, um, you know, but the whole point of that is like, it sounds silly but you need to practice because you're not gonna realize how hard it is. I think everyone thinks like, oh well, whatever. I just have this book. It's like, uh, you know, I mean, okay, cool. Tell me about it. You have 30 seconds.
Rekka:32:29 And in fact that's a good point because many authors when they tell you about their book, and hopefully they've learned this by the time they've queried an agent and submitted it to a publisher, but many of them will just start telling you the plot from point a to point z.
Kaelyn:32:46 And you don't want to do that.
Rekka:32:47 That is not a book pitch.
Kaelyn:32:48 No.
Rekka:32:48 That is, that is going to make people eyes glaze over and they are going to walk away going, what the heck was that? Even if your book is amazing.
Kaelyn:32:56 Yeah. A book pitch is plot, character, setting are the three. If you have 30 seconds, that's kind of what you need and you're thinking of this going like, okay, so I need a sentence for each of those. No, they should all work together and maybe you will need, yeah, maybe you only need a couple of words just for the setting. It's set on a distant planet. It's in a hidden fairy forest. It's, don't, I'm gonna say this, don't overcomplicate it.
Rekka:33:24 Right. The things you think are important to your book and really fascinating probably don't matter so much in the pitch.
Kaelyn:33:31 That is, that's actually a very good point because this is something I come up with with authors a lot. Your favorite part of the book does not mean that that's the important part of the book.
Rekka:33:41 Or it's not the part that's going to sell it.
Kaelyn:33:42 Exactly.
Rekka:33:43 So be careful about like how much you try to jam into your pitch. Just make it about the fascinating things. And some people hate comps, some people love comps, but try to have some comps on hand. And by comps we mean you know like titles that you can compare your book to that are going to express what a person might be able to expect when they open it up.
Kaelyn:34:06 So one last point and then I promise we'll stop talking about this because like we have planned to talk about pitches, but like this is really, you know, it is important -
Rekka:34:16 And this is a good moment. This is like you've got some downtime. This is really ideal time to be fixing.
Kaelyn:34:22 I know that this is not something everyone does wakes up and knows how to do, but learn how to read a situations and be self-aware. Um, if you're at a convention and there's a bunch of people all just hanging out talking, you know, you might go, go around and introduce yourself or you might say, yeah, since I've got this book coming out and like, oh, what's it about? Give your pitch and then stop.
Rekka:34:48 Yeah.
Kaelyn:34:48 Because chances are no one else really, I mean, unless people are asking you questions about it, the thing is that if they really want to know, they're going to go buy the book and read it, but just be self aware, don't corner people and make them listen to you. Don't, um, you know, people that are clearly just not interested or being polite because here's the thing, you don't want to be the person that got the reputation for, oh my God, they would not stop talking.
Rekka:35:15 Oh, here they come.
Kaelyn:35:15 And I was like, um, it's, and it's a hard thing to do sometimes. Just, you know, reading people, engaging what they're, you know, thinking and feeling about what's happening. But, um, it's important because you don't want that reputation of like, oh my God, they just would not shut up, crap. They're coming. We gotta, we gotta get outta here. So just be self aware. Um,
Rekka:35:39 If someone introduces you at bar con to an agent and you need an agent, then absolutely have your pitch like fluid and ready to go. And that's a good point. At Bar con, you might have some alcohol in you. So you also want to practice your pitches when you might be stumbling over your tongue a little.
Kaelyn:35:55 Yeah and also you want to practice your self-restraint when you have some alcohol in you.
Rekka:36:00 And cut your alcohol with some club soda or maybe don't drink alcohol if it's not good for you,
Kaelyn:36:07 Just be self aware, just you know, know what, know what you're going to be like.
Rekka:36:12 Yeah.
Kaelyn:36:13 In sobriety and otherwise.
Rekka:36:15 Yeah. So be realistic. And if it's going to impact your career negatively, then skip it.
Kaelyn:36:19 Yep.
Rekka:36:19 You can still hang out at Bar Con and sip a cranberry juice. So um so conferences, that's where we were getting at was are great way to um, hone this skill, your sales, but also build your community of support. So now your book is here. Your blog posts are out. They give you, like when those blog posts get launched at the, um, the sites that are hosting them, that's a great opportunity to retweet and share it and pitch your book again to people on Twitter, um, in a natural way because you have new content to deliver them. Um, you know, leading up to launch, you can post about how excited you are because genuine enthusiasm is going to be welcomed versus you know, just book pitch, book pitch, book pitch, book pitch. And so your book is out and what does that Book Launch Day like?
Kaelyn:37:13 Pretty much like any other day, any other Tuesday except you feel like something should be happening.
Rekka:37:20 So you might be tempted to reload your browser, you know, to see like are people talking about me? Check your phone a lot, you're checking your email a lot, looking on Amazon, watching the ranks, like try to have something else to do that day. Maybe if you can make plans to go to an aquarium or you know, like if you want to take the day off, you can, if, if going to work will keep you busy and distracted and won't give you opportunities to access like that might be the best place you can be. It's tough.
Kaelyn:37:50 Yeah. I think, um, it's, it's funny because I'm never quite sure what authors think is going to happen that day, but here's the, like, you're not going to have like a bunch of reviews flood in on your first day. You're not going to have like immediate sales numbers. You're not, there's really not a lot that can happen now in the coming weeks. And I would say even for the first week, there really isn't a lot that's going to be, it's going to be happening,
Rekka:38:16 Right. Except you do want to see that you are present. Yes. Like you know that the marketing has continued that um, you're talking about it on social media. Like you, hopefully you have the same sort of activity from your publisher. Um, any PR is going out. If there are articles about the release, you know, depending on how big it is, then you know, these are opportunities to share and keep that momentum going. And if you have some friends with their own audiences who have read the book, you can ask them to also, you know, help you out and tweet about how much they loved it, if they had a chance to read it.
Kaelyn:38:52 Exactly. So, um, yeah, so that's, I mean, that's debut day and there really is not much to it unfortunately.
Rekka:39:00 And the best thing you could do is work on book two.
Kaelyn:39:02 Yeah.
Rekka:39:02 And you know, try to avoid good reads, try to um, you know, stay away from the reviews because they're not for you. Take care of yourself, be nice to yourself and don't hinge like your entire experience of being an author on what happens on that day.
Kaelyn:39:20 Yeah. So after release -
Rekka:39:22 So following your book launch, you will probably have some appearances to make at either libraries or bookstores. Um, indie bookstores. This is a great way to get them on board with your book, by having your events at their location because, um, they're going to expect that you're going to draw some audience. It's stuff that they can entice their, uh, customers to the store with. But, um, so that bookstore is happy with you. You've brought local people. Um, on that note, if you are trying to plan as many things as possible, you don't want to cannibalize the book sales by going to two places that are really close together. They're not going to appreciate it and you know, going to have a weird awkward quiet visit with one or both of those. So, um, try to drum up as many, you know, people that you can bring along, they'll try to drum up their customers to come along, things like that. Um, you have to expect that one or more of these might be a bit of a dud. You know, if you are just trying to find any place that you can get into.
Kaelyn:40:26 Keep your expectations, realistic too.
Rekka:40:28 Yeah. Because you don't know what the audience for your genre is going to be like at any of these locations. So it might be crickets at some of them and that's okay. You know, eventually someone always tends to wander in and -
Kaelyn:40:40 And just be like, hey, so what's your deal?
Rekka:40:43 Well, sometimes they know and other times they're there because you're an author that succeeded and they are somebody who wants to write a book. So that happens too. But, um, yeah, so you've got maybe some podcasts appearances is that are, uh, broadcasting as, or after your book comes out, you want to keep sharing those, some interviews, um, on blogs or you know, if you're lucky radio or something like that, get in touch with your local papers. Maybe they can announce your book launch. Um, so you have, um, one book out, chances are you've got another one in your contract or an option. And if you're a writer, you know, chances are you like doing that. So once the dust settles, and honestly, if you can make a habit of doing it in the midst of chaos, that's even better. But keep working on your writing.
Kaelyn:41:29 Well, I'm going to qualify this by saying that you're probably working on your next book before the first one's out.
Rekka:41:34 Yes, definitely.
Kaelyn:41:35 Um, so if nothing else, if you're overwhelmed and you're worried, keep working on your craft, keep like working on the thing that made you an offer.
Rekka:41:46 Now you will see other authors on Twitter and around talking about how awful the second book is. And so since that's such a topic, I think we can save that for another discussion.
Kaelyn:41:57 Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Rekka:41:58 There's a lot that goes into focusing on writing a book when one is coming out. Um, as we mentioned, all the distractions of copy edits coming in and stuff like that. So I think we could talk about that for another half an hour or -
Kaelyn:42:08 No, that'll be, that's another episode. No problem.
Rekka:42:11 Not making this one run on any longer than it already has. But yeah, I mean, you're not alone in this, and there are lots of other authors who have already gone through this. There are authors who are going through it at the exact same stage that you are right now, and there are authors who are looking forward to going through this, figure out the best way for you to cope with the strange silences and the process.
Kaelyn:42:29 Have a list of things that you can be working on, things that like your blog posts pit, practicing your pitch, and when you're feeling lost, confused and directionless, pull out that list and go, all right, I'm going to spend some time on this thing.
Rekka:42:44 Right.
Kaelyn:42:45 Um, and just in life, I find that generally helps.
Rekka:42:49 But, um, knowing what the next thing that you need to do is sometimes a really clarifying thing that can just break the mood that you start to fall into the malaise of like, oh, am I good enough? Like you're, whether or not you're good enough and someone bought your book, so you are please, you are good enough, like repeat it into the mirror to yourself, but um, you know, break through that by just getting some work done.
Kaelyn:43:12 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I mean I think that's the episode.
Rekka:43:16 That was more than the episode.
Kaelyn:43:19 Yeah.
Rekka:43:19 Sorry, folks.
Kaelyn:43:20 Um, so, you know, hoped that was informative or maybe a little, a reassuring hopefully. But, um, you know, it's good. It's good stuff to hear.
Rekka:43:29 And if this has, um, brought up more questions or anything like that, please reach out to us on Twitter, ask us some, you know, refining the questions and we can reapproach this topic with more specific things in mind in the future.
Kaelyn:43:42 Exactly. Yeah. So, um, thank you everyone for listening and, uh, where can they find us on the socials?
Rekka:43:46 They can find us @wmbcast on twitter and instagram and also at patreon.comWMBcast. And if you could leave a rating or review and the apple podcast app, we'd really appreciate that and we'll read those in a future episode and we will.
Kaelyn:44:03 Cool
Rekka:44:03 Alright. Thanks everyone. We will talk to you in two weeks.
Kaelyn:44:07 Two weeks. Uh, wait. Well what's happening?
Rekka:44:11 Hold up a minute.
Kaelyn:44:11 So, um, in two weeks, our next episode is starting Submissions September, we're doing one episode a week for September, so you're getting four instead of just two like, you know -
Rekka:44:22 Potentially five.
Kaelyn:44:23 Potentially five. Yes, we have to-
Rekka:44:25 Possibly you are going to get five episodes.
Kaelyn:44:27 So we're covering pretty much all of this steps leading up to submitting your work and then also the process of doing that. So, um, we, when we were organizing, and I know it doesn't sound like it, but we do organize and you know, try to plan and think about things.
Rekka:44:46 How dare you?
Kaelyn:44:46 Um, but when we were kind of putting our thoughts together on submissions related topics, we were like, you know what, I feel like it's doing a disservice not to do all of these at once. And then we're like, well that would take two months. So that's a long time to go through all of these. So we decided we're going to do Submissions September, like I said, four episodes, one every Tuesday, possibly five episodes depending on, on how this some things a workout and we're just going to cover the topics related to that. And um, so we're excited to do it and I think it's, I think it's a good idea. Tell us it's a good idea.
Rekka:45:24 Well, yes. And at this point we are about to start recording it long before you're going to hear those episodes. So if you've asked us questions about submissions already, thank you so much. We had definitely taken those into consideration. But um, if you are listening to this episode at the end of August, then, um, all these episodes are already recorded. So if you have extra questions, go ahead and, and start shouting them at us. But if we don't answer them during September, no, it's just because of the timeline being what it is. And we'll get to them in another episode.
Kaelyn:45:56 If we get enough questions, we can do another episode, that's just a wrap up.
Rekka:46:01 Yeah, absolutely. Six episodes in one month. Why not?
Kaelyn:46:04 Hey, you know, we have nothing but time, right?
Rekka:46:08 Yeah. Time is great.
Kaelyn:46:09 So, um -
Rekka:46:10 Speaking of those book launches though, in the, in our next episode -
Kaelyn:46:14 Oh yes, yes.
Rekka:46:16 I would like to entice you all.
Kaelyn:46:18 So the first episode of submission, September is coming out on September 3rd, which also happens to be the book launch of "Salvage". Rekka's Second Book Day. Very excited.
Rekka:46:29 Or this awesome person, RJ Theodore.
Kaelyn:46:33 Yeah, I've heard her like, she's fine.
Rekka:46:36 Sheis exciting and she is magnificent and she is -
Kaelyn:46:39 The embodiment of all things right and good to in the world. Yes. Um, no Rekka's second novel in the Peridot Shift Trilogy, "Salvage" is being released that day. So, um, to celebrate that, uh, we're going to give away three copies of "Salvage" to, uh, I don't know. What do you want to make the stakes here?
Rekka:46:58 So the first three people to share this episode to their friends on Twitter and use the Hashtag #sporkpunkwieldersunite can choose from an ebook or a printed copy depending on how you prefer to read, because we definitely want you to read the book and, um, let us know if you've read "Flotsam" too, because if you haven't, there's, there's some spoilers in "Salvage" for "Flotsam", it's a one arc.
Kaelyn:47:23 Right. And print copy, you know, Rekka, will sign it, obviously.
Rekka:47:26 Obviously.
Kaelyn:47:26 Yeah. So, um, so yeah. Okay. That's our episode. Uh, so September, Submission, September, get ready for that. We're excited. Uh, release of "Salvage". There's a lot of S-s coming up here.
Rekka:47:36 It's a very alliterative uh, sesserrating civil, months.
Kaelyn:47:41 So, yeah. Well, thank you everyone again, so much for listening and we'll see you in September. We're going to be a, we're going to be pretty tired.
Rekka:47:48 Yeah. If we, we, you know, the episodes will go live. We may not be alive.
Kaelyn:47:53 Yeah. So just remember us fondly. All right, thanks everyone.
Rekka:47:56 Take care.
Tuesday Aug 06, 2019
Episode 10 - What If They Don't Like It? - Life, Death, and Book Reviews
Tuesday Aug 06, 2019
Tuesday Aug 06, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
This week, we’re talking about those wonderful, terrible things called reviews! Our last episode was pretty facts and numbers driven so this week, we wanted to talk about something a little more personal: Reading what people think of your book. Reviews are so much harder to deal with than we think they will be and in this episode we talk about everything from who will be reviewing your book to coping with a less than favorable review.
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your predictions for how long the Mets will manage to stay above .500 (Kaelyn’s got her money on less than 24 hours).
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
Rekka:00:00 Welcome back to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast. This is all about writing, all about publishing all your questions, all your wonderments, all the just the good fields and also some bad ones, unfortunately today.
Kaelyn:00:14 That's true. We're talking about feelings a lot today.
Rekka:00:16 We talk a lot about feelings.
Kaelyn:00:18 Yeah so, uh, today we didn't introduce ourselves.
Rekka:00:22 Who are we anyway?
Kaelyn:00:23 [laughs]
Rekka:00:23 After the, after recording that episode, I don't even know anymore. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.
Kaelyn:00:30 And I'm Kaelyn and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.
Rekka:00:34 And we talk about books -
Kaelyn:00:35 A lot.
Rekka:00:36 And sometimes we talk about other aspects of books, like the things that other people say about books.
Kaelyn:00:42 So today we're talking about reviews and um,
Rekka:00:43 Mmm, I don't want to talk about reviews anymore.
Kaelyn:00:47 Well, it's a little bit of an emotional roller coaster.
Rekka:00:50 Yeah.
Kaelyn:00:50 Reviews in general are because um good reviews -
Rekka:00:54 Are amazing.
Kaelyn:00:54 Amazing.
Rekka:00:55 And they lift you up.
Kaelyn:00:56 Bad reviews, not so much.
Rekka:00:58 Yes. They smash your head against the concrete repeatedly.
Kaelyn:01:01 Yeah. So, um, today, you know, we were talking about things we were going to discuss and um, this was something that, it was funny because it started out a little nebulous and then we realized we actually had a lot of structured information to talk
Rekka:01:14 Yeah, we really did.
Kaelyn:01:14 Um, so we kind of go, we take you through, uh, the process of how books get reviews, um, different kinds of reviews, what they mean, how they can influence you and finally move into the how to deal with reviews, which is, um, you know, a little bit more of a personal side to it.
Rekka:01:31 Yeah. Yeah. I got a little personal yeah.
Kaelyn:01:33 Which, um, you know, but I think that's great.
Rekka:01:35 Yes.
Kaelyn:01:35 It's, um, it's, it's an overlooked aspect of this that is very important to authors both in terms of selling their book but also emotionally and, um, kind of goes into that taking care of yourself through this process because it's stressful and it's horrible.
Rekka:01:53 It is stressful, and this episode assumes that you are like me incapable of just not looking at the reviews at all. Yeah. That advice, I don't know who it's meant for. It is not meant for me cause I can't, I can't abide that advice no matter what I tried.
Kaelyn:02:08 I have not met a single author that doesn't read their own reviews.
Rekka:02:11 Tell you what, sometimes if I'm in a bad mood, I go and read my reviews. So what does that tell you about me?
Kaelyn:02:17 Ummm ...
Rekka:02:17 It's not a good thing?
Kaelyn:02:18 Well,
Rekka:02:19 I mean my reviews are all right, but I always zero right in on the ones that like where the frustrating, like where did, what book were they reading?
Kaelyn:02:27 I have a feeling a therapist could have a field day with that. So we're going to, we're going to go find one while you guys listen to this episode and figure out what is going on with Rekka.
Rekka:02:38 Okay, first of all, how dare you.
Kaelyn:02:38 So everyone, uh, enjoy the episode please and um.
Rekka:02:41 Listen through to the end cause we tease a, a series of episodes that's coming up in September and we want your input on those and we're going to need it soon because we record ahead of time. So please listen all the way through the end. Even if listening to conversation about book reviews is as painful for you as it was for me endure.
Kaelyn:02:59 Enjoy the episode everybody.
Rekka:03:02 No. [inaudible]
Kaelyn:03:15 The soundtrack is amazing.
Rekka:03:17 And this isn't the one that's, you said, it's a record store. So it's what, it's the one with the radio station UHF or something like that?
Kaelyn:03:26 That might be right. No, this is-
Rekka:03:29 This is different.
Kaelyn:03:29 The name of the record store is Empire Records.
Rekka:03:31 Okay. Gotcha.
Kaelyn:03:34 Yeah. Um, there the birds outside or did, do these ever pick up the birds outside?
Rekka:03:41 I haven't heard the birds in the,
Kaelyn:03:42 I haven't either, which is amazing because when I woke up this morning I was just like, oh right there birds outside and oh, do they have a lot to say.
Rekka:03:50 Yeah. Um, if we have picked up dogs.
Kaelyn:03:55 Oh yeah.
Rekka:03:56 Yeah. But I've never, I've never heard anything other than dogs and the lawnmower.
Kaelyn:04:00 Well maybe soon we'll get some frog friends. All the face hungers. We'll do an episode at about like just standing out by the pond there.
Rekka:04:09 No, we won't even have to. We can just open the windows. And if we record a dusk, it will be just a cacophony.
Kaelyn:04:15 Well, we can do an episode that we record down by there where I'm just observing and remarking on all of the wildlife I see. Because every, it's -
Rekka:04:22 Telling the dragon flies to share their rocks.
Kaelyn:04:24 I'm a, I'm like a child. I'm like, I could, Rekka, there's like, there's like a fish. Yeah, Kaelyn. I know. But like, do you see it? It's a fish. Like, yes, there's, there's a few of them. Watch out for the snakes and just -
Rekka:04:35 Have some, mint.
Kaelyn:04:36 Have some mint. So anyway, hey, everyone.
Rekka:04:40 Hey everyone, there's our Patreon content.
Kaelyn:04:41 Yeah. Welcome to another episode. We are, um, well last week we did, we did a very factual episode two weeks ago. Excuse me.
Rekka:04:50 I was going to say, are we doing a weekly podcast now? I'd love to have you visit more often.
Kaelyn:04:53 Yeah. No. So we did, we did a very factual episode two weeks ago, so we decided to do something a little more, um -
Rekka:04:59 Instead of telling you to put on your hat and mustache, we're going to give you some tissues.
Kaelyn:05:05 Look the, the negotiating hat and mustache is a thing, okay? It's,
Rekka:05:10 You could say -
Kaelyn:05:11 Heals, skirt, jacket, full face of makeup, hat, and mustache.
Rekka:05:15 I really want to see you with the mustache now.
Kaelyn:05:17 It's weird.
Rekka:05:18 I think you could pull it off.
Kaelyn:05:20 Um, so yeah, we decided this week we're gonna kind of talk about something that's a little bit more on the emotional side of things.
Rekka:05:26 Right. So we've got the publisher here who wants to, you know, talk about all this hidden knowledge and stuff. And then you've got the writer here who is like just concerned with other people like her and her books.
Kaelyn:05:38 I have feelings.
Rekka:05:41 I have needs and my needs are to be loved.
Kaelyn:05:45 I don't have feelings anymore.
Rekka:05:48 Um, but that's Wall street's fault.
Kaelyn:05:49 Well, no, no. Well debatable, was one the causality of the other? Did I get into publishing and finance because I don't have feelings or do I not have feelings anymore because of that? Um, yeah, so we're talking about reviews and what people think of your book.
Rekka:06:08 So if you don't have a book out in the world, you might be excited for the day that you get your first review. But the very minute that you have a book that's out there that someone could read, all of a sudden the other possibility occurs to you that what if they don't like it?
Kaelyn:06:27 What if they don't like my baby?
Rekka:06:30 And then they tell everyone that it was terrible and nobody reads it because one person didn't like it.
Kaelyn:06:37 That's, that's the other side.
Rekka:06:41 That's the nightmare,
Kaelyn:06:41 That will keep you up at night.
Rekka:06:43 So I'm sorry about that. Uh, no. We want to talk about reviews from a, like all holistic standpoint. We want to talk about reviews from a holistic standpoint of, you know,
Kaelyn:06:57 So what are reviews? What do they tell us?
Rekka:07:01 Views are opinions. They are. Let's just be clear.
Kaelyn:07:04 That is, that is actually, that is a very, very good point to establish right off the bat here.
Rekka:07:09 Reviews are opinions that for some reason have big britches and think they're pretty great.
Kaelyn:07:17 And some opinions are more opinions than others.
Rekka:07:19 And some opinions are so much more opinions than others. And this is the age of the Internet. I think everybody knows what an opinion feels like.
Kaelyn:07:28 Yeah. Um, and everyone has a platform to go express them. Um, so we're going to kind of -
Kaelyn:07:37 Let's start with that. Let's start with the platforms.
Rekka:07:39 What are the different forms that a review might take?
Kaelyn:07:45 So we were talking about this before we started the episode. I know it doesn't always sound like it, but we do plan things.
Rekka:07:50 How dare you? Don't tell them that you're going to ruin my reputation. My brand is my babble.
Kaelyn:07:59 Um, so we kind of tried to break this down into types of reviews. So right off the bat we said there's reviews from literary people and then there's reviews from readers.
Rekka:08:11 Right. There are people who review professionally.
Kaelyn:08:14 Professionally, yes.
Rekka:08:15 And then there are those who might pretend to review professionally.
Kaelyn:08:21 There are people that go on Amazon and goodreads. There's readers, there's people who are reviewing a book because they read it and had feelings about it rather than someone who's paying them.
Rekka:08:30 Right.
Kaelyn:08:31 To review books.
Rekka:08:32 Yes. So let's be clear, a lot of literary reviews are paid reviews. There are an investment in the chance that their book will get a good review and therefore somebody puts money on the table and someone picks that money up and says, yes, thank you, I will read your book - just you wait.
Kaelyn:08:50 Yeah, but I mean also this could be someone who's just an editor at a magazine and this is what they did.
Rekka:08:54 Right.
Kaelyn:08:55 Um, so, but within the literary, uh, reviews, uh, the professional reviewers, we've got also two types within there.
Rekka:09:03 Right? There's the paywall kind of review and the public media review. So when I say paywall, I'm talking about like trade publications. You need a subscription to read it on their website or to receive the print copies for those who still do that.
Rekka:09:18 Yeah. And just to be clear, the reason for this is they're doing two different things. Um, trade publications like Publishers Weekly, Kirkland, they are the ones that you need a subscription for. And the people that are going to subscribe to those are book buyers, libraries, bookstores, uh, you know, any sort of mass marketing. And a distribution site because they want to see what's good coming out that I should get a lot of. So the trade publications are, you know, the, if you want to call it industry side of things, the literary side of things, the media ones are like the New York Times Book Review. These are editors that work for some form of media that, you know, they just get a salary and they review these things and then write about them. So they're appealing more to readers. The people who are going to pick books up from that or the ones that are like -
Rekka:10:12 They're buying one copy.
Kaelyn:10:13 Yeah. And they want to know, ah, I, this sounds interesting. I'll read this one.
Rekka:10:19 Or I only read New York Times reviewed books.
Kaelyn:10:21 [sigh]
Rekka:10:21 Because that means they're the ones that count.
Kaelyn:10:25 Yeah. That's a, that's a whole other,
Rekka:10:27 That's a mood.
Kaelyn:10:30 That's a thing. Um, so then the other side of it is of course the, the readers and these are the people that just, maybe they got the book off of, you know, a media machine that told them about it. Um, and they go online and write a review, say what they thought of the book. Um, you know, who else it might appeal to and any kind or not so kind things they have to say about it.
Rekka:10:55 So this can be book bloggers, book Youtubers.
Kaelyn:10:59 This could just be someone that bought the book on Amazon and then was like, I loved this and I want everyone to know how much I loved it or I hated this and I don't want anyone else to buy this book.
Rekka:11:09 Right. Um, so I would give it zero stars if I could.
Kaelyn:11:13 God, thank God that's not a thing, cause could you imagine? Um, so those are the main kind of two groups that we have here. So readers and industry individually. Yeah. So one of the, you know, one of the things you probably, I, I wondered this like when I was a kid, before I got into publication, I'd go buy a book and there was already a review on the cover and I was like, this came out two days ago.
Rekka:11:42 Time travel, Kaelyn. Time travel. They have figured it out. Publishing is keeping it to itself.
Kaelyn:11:46 I very clearly remember, I don't, I think I was like 14 I don't remember what book it was, but I went to Barnes and noble to buy it and it was a hardback book and I picked it up and there was a review on it. I was like, ho-how?
Rekka:12:00 My assumption as a child, because I had the same thought, was that it must be a second printing.
Kaelyn:12:05 Okay, see yours was more logical than mine. Mine -
Rekka:12:08 It was time problem.
Kaelyn:12:08 Mine was time travel. So books go out early to publish- to people in the industry. This could be authors that can give it a blurb. This could be places like Publishers Weekly that is going to write up a review for it. And we talked about a- ARCs quite a couple episodes ago.
Rekka:12:30 Yep.
Kaelyn:12:30 And these are the ARCs. This is what they're doing. This is why they're sent out into the wild.
Rekka:12:34 Going out to be seen with enough time because of course books take longer to consume than a movie or television episode. So the ARCs have gone out, people have had time to pour over them and hopefully fall in love. And maybe even start talking about them, share a photo of them. We talked to one of our other authors, Christopher Ruz recently. Um, and when I say our authors, I mean our, our little part of his family. Um, but Christopher Ruz had just literally before we got on the call, seen his book in the stack of books that John Scalzi, that's a, we're talking about the influencer that's like,
Kaelyn:13:13 Oh God, we have literary influencers.
Rekka:13:15 We have literary influencers, we do. So, um, yeah, so that's the thing too. So sometimes just having your book appear in a stack, it's a great, helpful, yeah.
Kaelyn:13:25 It's a great thing. It's just, you know, and it's fun. So, um, typically like ARCs might go out with blurbs from authors. You know, you circulate this to a few people, a bloggers, authors, people that will, you know, say like, Oh yeah, I read this and I loved it. And you put that on there.
Rekka:13:43 Hopefully it's phrased slightly better than that.
Kaelyn:13:46 That's what I always say. So, and then the ARCs that go or the publications that go out are gonna have the things from the reviews. And that's you know, five stars from -
Rekka:14:00 Yeah. So and so just in terms of a movie like the movie trailer that right the week before exactly has the five star and so and so says it's the must see hit of the summer kind of thing. And we're talking about those sorts of blurbs that can be used, um, to what is the, the term social, the reason you want reviews is it's like social proof.
Kaelyn:14:25 Oh, okay.
Rekka:14:26 So the reviews that you get from peers and other authors, um, will maybe convince the publications to pick it up and look at it. And then the publication reviews and blurbs on the covers will maybe convince the readers to pick it up and look at it because um, that's like the social proof that, um, that you require. And it's also partially why you want more reviews on your book page, product page on Amazon. Because again, it's social proof. It's flypaper if don't see reviews on a book, they assume no one has read it, which is a terrible thing to assume, but it's, it's flypaper. It's people go where there are more reviews. And the nice thing about having a ton of reviews is they tend to cancel out the ones that are not in the storyline in terms of, yeah, negative outliers. Like they do tend to be overwhelmed by true organic reviews as opposed to people with a, a vendetta against the book because of emotional trauma. They suffered from something else in their lives.
Kaelyn:15:40 So that's kind of the rundown of how the reviews are going. Um, you know, the advanced ones are going to be from advanced copies either for ARCs that were sent out or Netgalley. So then they start coming in.
Rekka:15:53 Right. And so they can help a book succeed.
Kaelyn:15:56 Oh, absolutely, they're crucial.
Rekka:15:58 Again, like we said, the social proof, they can influence the sales in the case of someone who is directly linking to the book and the book sells as a result of it appearing wherever it appeared. So that can be to both readers and booksellers, um, that is a direct sale influence. Um, it can also just help build your name recognition if someone is just hearing your name over and over and over again, they're going to forget that the first time they heard the name they decided not to make the purchase. You know, that they just keep hearing that um, you know, trail of lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse, is just incredible and they just keep hearing that trail of lightning by Rebecca around horses is just incredible.
Kaelyn:16:39 And you know what?
Rekka:16:39 Trail of Lightening. by Rebecca Roanhorse is incredible.
Kaelyn:16:42 And you know what, that's how I heard about it.
Rekka:16:44 Yup.
Kaelyn:16:45 I just kept hearing the title of
Rekka:16:48 Over and over again -
Kaelyn:16:49 Being mentioned and kept popping up in things and people were writing reviews and posting them to stuff and full confession: I still have just not had time to read it.
Rekka:16:58 I have read it. It is very good.
Kaelyn:17:00 But I have the copy of it and it's on my list. I just have not gotten to it yet.
Rekka:17:05 Well, I mean that is the life that is.
Kaelyn:17:07 Yeah. That's the thing about like you think like, oh, I love books. I'm going to do this. Oh, now I can't read anything that I want to read them. Yeah. Um, so yeah, reviews are very egr- , reviews can make or break a book and we don't like to think that's the case, but it is.
Rekka:17:24 So you have name recognition so that it will eventually influence somebody who might be open to that book in the first place to pick it up. And maybe it's not that they need to hear it 11 times before they buy it. That's not a conscious choice. But by seeing it over and over again, one of those times it's going to just hit the person on the right day in the right mood or it's going to be described differently in a new way that's going to make that person go, oh, that's what that is. Actually. I really want to read that. Um -
Kaelyn:17:53 I will, by the way, give you an example of that. I did not read the hunger games for a very long time until after it came out. Now, part of it was the cover copy. It just was not like, it just did not appeal to me, but it kept popping up, kept popping up and like your opinions about the hunger games aside, you know, it was fine, whatever.
Rekka:18:13 Successful.
Kaelyn:18:14 But that's the thing is that it was very successful and part of it was the reviews that I finally went and looked at them and I was like, everyone loves this book. Now, I kind of knew like, you know, this wasn't going to change my life, but like it was fine. It was good.
Rekka:18:30 Yeah.
Kaelyn:18:30 You know. Um, so that's, you know, that's a good example of like this thing that I just kept, not only not buying, but actively avoiding.
Rekka:18:40 Resisting.
Kaelyn:18:41 Yeah. Listen,
Rekka:18:42 And I've done that with, you know, Empire Records of the movie, you know,
Kaelyn:18:45 I'm going to make you watch it.
Rekka:18:46 Yes. I know. Um, so the name recognition, eventually you wear a person down and that's, uh, that is a marketing thing that people say it takes x number of con- points of contact before a person remembers you and it takes x number before they make the decision to purchase.
Kaelyn:19:03 I still probably would not have read that book if I hadn't checked out the reviews and saw that everyone was raving about.
Rekka:19:09 And something drew you to the page to go look at the reviews.
Kaelyn:19:13 Yeah. Because it kept coming up and I was like, alright, I gotta go see what's going on.
Rekka:19:17 Yeah. What am I missing? Um, so it will, and that's sort of the next point. It will help a reader make a decision. Is this for me? That is, that is another question that many readers who manage to control their TBR piles, they ask like, is this one that I'm actually going to enjoy or is this, you know, some readers need to know that when they sit down with a book, it's going to hit the marks of things that they enjoy in a book. And so reviews, um, without spoiling can still, we'll just kind of like hint at like, oh, it's got romance, it's got adventure, it's got kickass feminine lead characters. It's got magic. It's got baby dragons. Like governments being overthrown.
Kaelyn:20:03 I have a question.
Rekka:20:04 Can I have a baby dragon?
Kaelyn:20:05 Is this a book that exists?
Rekka:20:06 Probably.
Kaelyn:20:07 Okay.
Rekka:20:08 I wasn't naming one in particular.
Kaelyn:20:09 No, I'm just saying like, I mean I'm just saying there's -.
Rekka:20:12 You asked me what I was going to write next. There you go, I'll write that for you.
Kaelyn:20:14 Thank you.
Rekka:20:15 And then remind me what I said. I'll have to listen to that.
Kaelyn:20:17 We'll go back to the recording. Just going to give you a list of like Rekka for your next book. What about my editor? He's not important, for your next book.
Rekka:20:27 So, so we did say that a review can draw other media attention. So like you might end up getting on a couple of book lists from other people because they saw a review that made them pick it up.
Kaelyn:20:39 Yeah and by the way, just a quick aside, I think this is a common misunderstanding that all of this, you know, stuff needs to be beforehand, right.
Rekka:20:48 A lot of stuff with books comes after as follows.
Kaelyn:20:51 Yeah. Where the it picks up and then suddenly you're on book lists and people like, we think that reviews from major outlets only come beforehand. That's not true at all. Lot of them come after.
Rekka:21:01 And it's frustrating when, um, you know, from a little weak author's perspective when you hear that like a publisher will stop paying attention to your book after a certain amount of time.
Kaelyn:21:13 Definitely not. Yeah.
Rekka:21:14 No, we don't want that because it's possible.
Kaelyn:21:16 No. And it's, um, you know, sometimes it's simply a matter of you can only make the book available to so many people before it's released. Some people just have to wait until it comes out.
Rekka:21:27 Yeah.
Kaelyn:21:28 It's not fair. And I should get every book I want right now. Yes. Um, but I'm told I have to wait sometimes.
Rekka:21:35 So, um, when people start reviewing on product pages after a book has been released, you know, or as soon as Amazon will allow you to leave the reviews or good reads will let you leave them early. Amazon, you need to at least have the ebook.
Kaelyn:21:53 Amazon's weird.
Rekka:21:53 They're changing the rules. I mean, I'd rather have a four star review that says, I can't wait to read it than a three star review that said, Oh my God, I love this. I can't wait to read the next one.
Kaelyn:22:03 We will get to that.
Rekka:22:04 We'll get to that. So, um, all of these data points that people are leaving on the Internet because that's frankly the world we exist in. Now. These data points feed the algorithms additional data to drive the search -
Kaelyn:22:18 Ah the delicious data slurry that feeds the algorithms.
Rekka:22:20 Yes, you'll lose your boots trying to walk through it, but you know, it is sticky, gooey goodness that will drive people to your books who are in theory a good match. And the reason that these algorithms are designed to find you good matches is because Amazon and the others want a reputation for their recommendations to be valuable.
Kaelyn:22:42 Yes.
Rekka:22:43 So they want their search results to make people happy, which means they want to deliver people to products that will make them happy. Your book is a product, I'm sorry to tell you that again and again and again, but it's true. And Amazon wants to find people who want to buy your book because then they will pay Amazon for your book and then Amazon will get more money because that's what they need desperately. They are starving.
Kaelyn:23:03 It's really sad. And I think we should moment of silence for Amazon.
Rekka:23:06 Maybe just start a Go Fund Me cause we got to get on with the episode.
Kaelyn:23:09 It's true.
Rekka:23:09 All right. So, um, so those algorithms will find good readers. So you want people to leave accurate reviews for how they feel about it because then Amazon will match their purchase history and other books they have enjoyed and find other people similar to them. This is kind of like building your audience with Facebook pixels. Um, and then by finding those people, Amazon will serve your booked to people who are better suited to read it and then leave you more positive reviews. So it's a good thing.
Kaelyn:23:40 It's a great thing.
Rekka:23:40 It's just that it can be frustrating because as we've mentioned earlier in the episode, the Internet is full of opinions.
Kaelyn:23:46 Yes. So -
Rekka:23:48 And some people choose to bless you with their opinion whether you want it or not. Okay. So the other side of that was that there are pitfalls to reviews and we've touched on them. We have hinted at them. We have ironically sarcastically said things so far in the episode to give you the impression that sometimes the reviews will not be positive.
Kaelyn:24:06 Yeah. And let's just get it right out of the way. Right off the gate. Bad reviews are hard to deal with and process and this is coming from, you know the - Rekka. You guys can't see Rekka making a sad face right now.
Rekka:24:20 I never make a happy face.
Kaelyn:24:22 I as a publisher also obviously hate bad reviews and nothing is more infuriating than seeing one where somebody is upset about something that they shouldn't have been.
Rekka:24:35 Or has nothing to do with the book.
Kaelyn:24:36 Or has nothing to do with the book or will halfway admit through the review: I only read the first three chapters.
Rekka:24:43 One star. The book came damaged.
Kaelyn:24:45 Yeah. Oh that's a good one yeah.
Rekka:24:48 That's one of the best.
Kaelyn:24:49 So you know, the thing about these sites is everyone gets to put their opinion on there and it's good because for the most part it's helpful for books.
Rekka:25:00 Yeah.
Kaelyn:25:01 But especially if your book is, you know, just recently launched and your reviews are slowly trickling in and you get like a one one star and that knocked some your -
Rekka:25:09 Just suddenly your average that goes from like 4.7 to like 2.3 and I know that's not how math works. But yes.
Kaelyn:25:18 And that's incredibly frustrating and it can take an emotional toll. It can, I, I understand that. Like, you know, this can, that can ruin your day. That can ruin your week.
Rekka:25:30 Yup. Um, don't read reviews before bed. Let me just put that right down to that. So one of the pitfalls of bad reviews and negative reviews is hurt feelings and they are probably going to be on the part of the people who can't really do anything about it, the publisher and the author. Because as we'll get to later, you're not going to respond to individuals don't like that, but they will also potentially, if it's an influencer who chooses to take particular exception to you and they don't just leave a review in the comments that like falls into the sea of other reviews, but they choose to actually take to their platform to denounce your book. That can influence sales of their followers and some influencers do have a large, they carry avidly attentive crowd of followers who will do what this influencer says.
Rekka:26:23 We were, another thing we were talking about before we got started here was you've got to have a little bit of a thick skin going into this and you can't. I know it's so much easier said than done and this is coming from two people who have to deal with this stuff. You can't take it personally.
Rekka:26:43 You have to figure out how you're going to use this information.
Kaelyn:26:45 Yeah, I understand that this is the most personal thing in the world. This is your book. This is years of your life, hours and hours that you will never get back.
Rekka:26:55 And potentially income if the review costs you money.
Kaelyn:26:57 Potentially income, it's not personal. I hope it's not, anyway, some -
Rekka:27:04 Eh, yeah, that's, that's part of it, you know?
Kaelyn:27:07 But, but if you get a bad review and it's a genuinely just, I did not enjoy this book, look at it as this person just didn't enjoy this book. Look at all of these other people that did like,.
Rekka:27:19 Just to quickly sum that up, there are only two real problems with bad reviews. One, you're not going to feel good about them. And two, they might negatively impact your sales. Chances are they're just going to eventually drown in the sea of other reviews or be forgotten. So how do you react to bad reviews?
Kaelyn:27:36 Don't. That's just don't.
Rekka:27:40 But you have feelings. I'm saying like, okay, you're, you're mistaking that for responding.
Kaelyn:27:46 Yes,
Rekka:27:46 I'm not, I'm not saying respond.
Kaelyn:27:47 Yes.
Rekka:27:48 Okay. So now that you have bad reviews or good reviews there, they're both emotional.
Kaelyn:27:57 Oh, absolutely.
Rekka:27:57 Highs and lows, highs and lows and that sort of thing. So how do you react? One is -
Kaelyn:28:03 Let's go with good reviews first.
Rekka:28:05 Sure.
Kaelyn:28:05 That's the easier one to -
Rekka:28:06 One is you can use those reviews if they're fantastic.
Kaelyn:28:09 Absolutely.
Rekka:28:10 Those are yours. Now retweet them if they're posted publicly. Yeah, you just cite the source of the review and if it's like some weird username on Amazon, you can just say Amazon reviewer or something or um, retweet them if you found them on Twitter. Um, if you have a product page for your book on your website, you can just start listing your favorite good reviews there. And it's not a bad practice to save your good reviews cause Amazon might randomly take them down one day, which is obnoxious and frustrating.
Kaelyn:28:37 Well and this is horrible, that something can happen to Amazon and then everything's gone.
Rekka:28:41 Everything that Amazon owns is gone. If they suddenly decide that they make spaceships now instead of sell everything in the universe.
Kaelyn:28:49 I mean spaceships are probably only a matter of time.
Rekka:28:51 Yes. But that will be this separate section of Amazon so they can shut down the books department. Um, yeah. So if something were to happen to Amazon, somebody finally takes enough of an issue that they hack Amazon or whatever and wipe their databases and all their backups there go your reviews. So it's always good to save the reviews you want to be able to access again later. So put them on your book page. Just keep a file in, you know, private, you don't even have to share it and post it anywhere, but just keep a file of all of the good reviews you've gotten and their sources so that you can use them someday if you need to have like if you want to add praise for something that you can credit them properly cause yes those are your reviews. They were posted publicly. You can use them in your marketing, but you also want to credit the person who gave them to you. Definitely because it's not social proof. If you just to have good things to say about your own book. So you can use them in cover blurbs. If they're well written, obviously cover blurb has to be a little bit shorter than the average review. So somebody writes it in a pithy manner and there's like a great sentence that you can highlight and pull out. You can put that on a cover blurb or on a, um, you know, industry praise page inside your book, stuff like that. Um, use it on the book description of your product pages. Amazon and other book sites have a field in the product listing specifically for reviews that are um, you know, separate on the page. They don't want them like bogging down to book description, but they have a spot you can put them. So absolutely put them there. If you have a great review blurb from somebody that you know, their name is worth something, um, which sounds really transactional, but like at that point, that person has given you that review for that purpose.
Kaelyn:30:33 And you know what that's it. It sounds transactional. It is, but it's important.
Rekka:30:38 And it's mutual.
Kaelyn:30:39 You know, it's how it's how things go. And it is just, um, a series of people helping the ones, the next ones get a leg up.
Rekka:30:47 Yes, absolutely. So, um, those are the good reviews.
Kaelyn:30:50 Those are the good reviews.
Rekka:30:51 Now I will give the next piece of advice, but it also applies to good reviews or don't have it. Don't respond to that review in a comment thread on the reviews page of Amazon. Yes, you are not partaking in a message board about your books on Amazon. You are not the target audience for those reviews. Yes, you would probably not able to help yourself from reading them, but they are not for you. They are for future potential readers of your book.
Kaelyn:31:22 Yes.
Rekka:31:22 Do not engage. Do not make the reviewers feel like you are breathing down their necks and about to, you know, come at them if they don't leave a review that's worthy of your, you know, affection or whatever. Even good reviews. If you start commenting on all of them, you can start to make readers feel pretty uncomfortable.
Kaelyn:31:42 A lot of people who write reviews, especially on Amazon and goodreads, maybe, you know, that's a little more community driven thing, I think. Amazon, they're reviewing a product and as far as they know, they're doing it in a void. They're not there to interact with people. They're there to leave their thoughts. And a lot of reviewers I think don't really think about how, especially for the first month or so, the author is compulsively checking this, looking for reviews.
Rekka:32:14 YEs
Kaelyn:32:14 I think if they, they're just going, oh cool, I'm going to, I liked this book. I'm going to tell people about how I liked this book. So when they find that the author is reading these and then as interacting with them, I think that kind of mentally pulls them out of
Rekka:32:33 It also may prevent them from reviewing everyone else's things in the future because they might feel that this is a thing that happens. So they can't leave an honest review and then they may just feel nervous about it and stop reviewing and that is not what anyone wants.
Kaelyn:32:47 Yeah. So, um, let's get into what happens when you get a bad review.
Rekka:32:52 And so again, don't engage that review is still not for you, even if they are not seeming to take something personal from that. Yeah. If they are personally saying, you know, such and such authors should never have gotten a publishing deal.
Kaelyn:33:12 That is still just their opinion by the way, that person's just a jerk.
Rekka:33:17 Right, but there are reviews like that. Exactly. You might want to engage, you might want to send your friends or fans to engage.
Kaelyn:33:25 Don't do it.
Rekka:33:26 Don't, don't even, because again, the idea with all of those is that reviewers are supposed to be reviewing books in a vacuum, yet they're not supposed to be a influenced by anything or be afraid of anything. If they wanted to have a conversation with you about your books, you probably have a contact form on your website or they can find you on Twitter or on Facebook or Instagram. They will come find you, if they want to engage with you, the fact -
Kaelyn:33:53 Which even then probably still don't engage.
Rekka:33:55 There's another, yeah, there's another little bit about that on Twitter. There you will frequently see keeps coming up. Don't add an author if you're leaving a negative review on Twitter, like there's just don't. So that may still happen and that may, I would just say when it comes to negative reviews, just you have to be able to dust off your shoulder and walk away without engaging, it is so difficult not to react emotionally to this.
Kaelyn:34:22 Well, can I ask you, how did you feel when you got your first negative review?
Rekka:34:26 Oh, I've never gotten negative review. No. Um, um, I was crushed. I was absolutely crushed and I was shaking. Um, and it was devastating for me for the rest of the day. I couldn't focus and I couldn't. Um, I couldn't think of anything else.
Kaelyn:34:50 And I will say conversely, when books that I've worked on and especially, you know, early reviews and stuff and they get less than stellar reviews, um, I get very upset, um.
Rekka:35:03 Hot under the collar about it for the rest of the day at least.
Kaelyn:35:06 And I think we as people have this like, I need to set this person straight.
Rekka:35:11 Yeah.
Kaelyn:35:11 You can't, don't do that.
Rekka:35:12 Like the person says one thing that makes you realize that they didn't quite understand what you were going to need to describe it to them.
Kaelyn:35:19 That's what I was edging towards and we can lead into now is there's probably two major kinds of bad reviews. One is, I didn't like this, either, you know, it wasn't for me. I didn't like the story. I didn't like the writing. I didn't connect with it, the characters.
Rekka:35:35 And that's just, that's just a review and that's just what it is.
Kaelyn:35:38 However the other -
Rekka:35:39 No, no, no. I've got more to say about that one. If that person is helpful, yeah, they might say, I picked up this book thinking it was going to be just like Stephen King's dark towers and your book has nothing like Stephen King's dark towers. That's a fantastic review for you to have because one person has stopped other dark towers fans for purchasing your book and leaving the same review. So we covered that a little bit before, but I'm just saying like that review where it's like, I was expecting this but I got this. It's honest. It's not necessarily wrong unless they are wrong and it's not whatever they say.
Kaelyn:36:12 And it's not personal.
Rekka:36:13 It's not personal, it's just like, well, I really thought I was getting something else.
Kaelyn:36:16 So that's, that's one kind of bad review and we can, we can argue which one is harder to deal with. But the other is, and this is from my end, this is the frustrating one. The people who just either clearly didn't read it past a few chapters or are being obtuse about it.
Rekka:36:36 Yeah.
Rekka:36:37 Um, I won't say didn't understand it because I hate that, you know, I don't like the well, you just didn't get it because my answer to that is always, well that's a problem then.
Rekka:36:46 Yeah.
Kaelyn:36:47 Um, but the flip side of that is people who don't get it because the did not read it well or they didn't put the effort into it and you're absolutely going to get some of those because people, some people write very long reviews and they'll be like, and this thing was never addressed. And it's like, no, no, we did address that. We did answer that question. This is something that's talked about in the book and it's incredibly frustrating because now you've got this glaring ugly review sitting there.
Rekka:37:14 That makes it look as though you have not answered it. And the only way that you can prove that you did is if someone picks it up anyway and you feel like this review is going to prevent that from happening.
Kaelyn:37:23 Exactly. That is an incredibly, and I think that those are the kind that really drive people over the edge. The ones that are just like, I didn't like it. That's sad and upsetting in its own right. Yeah, because you know that's something that you can't do anything about. The ones where it's like this person gave me a horrible review on a book that they clearly did not pay attention.
Rekka:37:45 Attention to. Yeah. And these this day and age, frankly people are on their phones all the time. I've seen people reading and then pick up their phone and then go back to reading and it's like how, how much attention are you paying to either of those things? Like can you've really focused the way people used to focus on books when there wasn't a constant input device.
Kaelyn:38:04 So don't get me wrong, I fast read some books, but if I don't feel like I want, like if I'm kind of not feeling great about them when I finish them, I'm kind of like, I probably missed something.
Rekka:38:14 Yeah.
Kaelyn:38:14 Um, and this is, this is a personality default thing. I think there's two ways people can go. There's the me where it's like, I must have missed something here. And then there's the, well, they just didn't do it.
Rekka:38:24 I'm the right one. I am correct all the time. Forever. I've never been wrong. Um, so, so I would like to say that there are also, there are two other kinds of reviews.
Kaelyn:38:33 Oh, okay.
Rekka:38:33 We're going further with, we're going for, I can drill this down as an author. I feel targeted by more, more than just the two typefaces -
Kaelyn:38:39 Do they fit into these two categories?
Rekka:38:40 I tried. And I really tried. They there, they might be cousins. Um, one is the person who says, I didn't finish it. I didn't, I couldn't read past chapter one. Here's my review of the entire book.
Kaelyn:38:56 Well, I would put that in the people that didn't pay attention to it category.
Rekka:39:01 I feel like that's more of a conscious decision not to read the book and still give an opinion as opposed to the people who think they read the book versus the people who know that they shut the cover before they got to the end.
Kaelyn:39:12 All right, so that's one.
Rekka:39:13 And then the, well that's number three and number four is the, I really enjoyed this book. I am looking forward to the next one. Three stars. She's laughing because she's early because she knew what
Kaelyn:39:29 I - this is. These reviews as -
Rekka:39:32 This is well written -
Kaelyn:39:33 These ones.
Rekka:39:34 I really enjoyed this. I could see it as a movie. Three stars.
Kaelyn:39:37 These reviews as a publisher are the bane of my existence.
Rekka:39:43 Yup.
Kaelyn:39:45 I, you know, if you go look up Parvus books, you can definitely, you know, find a few of these. It takes every ounce of restraint I have in me not to write back to this person. I loved this book. It hooked me at the first chapter, kept me engaged to the end. There were a few couple little things that I didn't like. This character that I didn't understand but oh boy, I hope this author's got another book coming out in this same world. I can't wait to read it. Three out of five stars, three out of five stars is not a, I can't wait to read the next book, review and Rekka and I are climbing up on a soapbox right now because we're taking this a little out of the, you know the etiquette realm of things and taking it more into the,
Rekka:40:34 Because my reaction to that is motherfucker, what?
Kaelyn:40:39 Reviews are as we've just spent the last half hour or so talking about, very important.
Rekka:40:44 And they are well defined by the platforms on which you leave them.
Kaelyn:40:48 Yes.
Rekka:40:48 Which is also part of the problem because sometimes the platforms on which you leave them if you leave them on multiples, the three star review that Goodreads tells you is a positive review on Amazon is considered pure critical.
Kaelyn:41:01 Yes. Which is weird because Amazon owns Goodreads, so they should probably sync those two things up.
Rekka:41:06 Amazon since they bought Goodreads has Not turned good reads into an Amazon thing, which is they've just held onto it. But the reviews is something they really should bring into alignment because there are people who believe, I mean, there are people on Goodreads whose profiles say you have to earn my five star review. And it's like, why are you coming off like that?
Kaelyn:41:25 Well, and that's another thing is that I think I can go
Rekka:41:28 You need friends that you can go just let loose on and you know that they're not going to go into the comments either they're all just gonna sit around and go, oh man, Gosh, some people. So you need someone that you can trust. Like I know I can send Kaelyn a text with a screenshot and just go look at this one. Look at this. Just peach and precious, precious reviewer. I'm really reigning in my language here. Um, you know, thanks for that. Thanks. You're so helpful.
Kaelyn:41:56 I will not bring in my language and I will write back that fucking yeah of God. No, I get it. Just, just ignore them. Rekka you're, you're too good for them.
Rekka:42:07 Yeah. So it's um, you need a circle of friends where your frustration over the review is not going to leave the circle salt, the edges of the circle. Keep your view on the, your opinions about the review on the inside and keep the reviews on the outside. I mean, there was a reason that the advice is frequently repeated to not read the reviews. I think everybody knows nobody's following that.
Kaelyn:42:30 No one's going to not do that.
Rekka:42:31 That - how curious, how can you just like let a book out into the world and not wonder how it's doing?
Kaelyn:42:37 Go! Be free!
Rekka:42:37 Yeah, no, we like, you know, nature scientists tag their, their studies specimen, you have reviews and we're always checking back in and we want to know that the book is loved as much as we love it.
Kaelyn:42:50 Yeah. So it's hard. It's not fun. You can't engage, you can't do anything. You are going to come off as the bonkers one in that situation.
Rekka:43:02 Every time. And what you need to do is train yourself to have your reaction privately to like walk away from a computer. So there's no chance of sending out a signal into the world about your reaction to it.
Kaelyn:43:14 If you want to walk away, go stand in your backyard and scream.
Rekka:43:18 Yes.
Kaelyn:43:19 That's fine because there is no situation in which you -
Rekka:43:24 Can improve that review.
Kaelyn:43:26 I won't say go after someone, but interact with them after a bad review that makes you look good at the end of -
Rekka:43:34 Or makes them want to change the review for the better.
Kaelyn:43:36 Well that too. That's another, yeah, that's certainly not going to help. There is no circumstances under which you leave this better. The only other thing is that maybe this person also doesn't look as good now, but that even then is not going to help you because you're not there to go online and bully people. Your job as an author is not to use your platform to go online and bully people who don't like your writing.
Rekka:44:00 Right.
Kaelyn:44:01 So it's hard. Deep breaths, tea, coffee, vodka.
Rekka:44:07 Share it with people.
Kaelyn:44:08 Whatever your, put the vodka in the tea. Yes, whatever you need to, but try. Your first one is going to be the, that's like someone hitting you in the chest with a sledgehammer.
Rekka:44:23 Or an axe.
Kaelyn:44:24 An axe whichever. I mean, you're going to get the wind knocked at you. You're going to feel horrible. It's not fun. And then you will look back and go, remember that time I got that first bad review and how I cried for three days. Oh my God. Now I'm just like, ha, bring it.
Rekka:44:39 Um, when does that happen? Can I have some of that?
Kaelyn:44:42 You've got a bit to go.
Rekka:44:42 Yeah, the badies still hurt. They don't get the, it never feels good to have someone go online and drag you.
Kaelyn:44:49 Yeah, of course not.
Rekka:44:50 And they might not even think they're dragging you
Kaelyn:44:53 No.
Rekka:44:53 They see a three-star review as positive.
Kaelyn:44:56 But that's the thing. They're not going online to drag you. You're going online to review your book. Now we should say, there are some jerks in the world.
Rekka:45:05 Right. There are people who use, as Kaelyn said before, the ability to criticize others as a way to make themselves feel like more valuable people.
Kaelyn:45:15 Exactly. And, and those, there's nothing you can do about those people. And to be honest with you, the best thing to do with those people is just say, I don't want to know or be around this person anyway. They're clearly a jerk.
Rekka:45:28 But you're not saying it to them. You're saying it to yourself because you are never ever going to speak to.
Kaelyn:45:31 Never going to say it to them. Yes and pick your head up, read the good reviews, print, print them out and leave them next to your computer for it if something happens and remind yourself that you know that you made a good book because you worked with a good group of people, you put the time and effort in and other people are buying it and telling you how much they like it. And I understand that is a hard thing to mentally get over. But to do this you have to have thick skin a little bit because anytime you are putting something out in the world, you were making it available for other people to criticize.
Rekka:46:04 All of them. You cannot control who gets to read your book.
Kaelyn:46:08 Yes, but on a happy note, a lot of people are going to read it. They're going to like it and they're going to tell you how much they like it. So stick with that.
Rekka:46:16 Stick with that and do it yourself.
Kaelyn:46:18 Yeah.
Rekka:46:18 If there's a book you love an author, you love all their stuff. Go start some bank up, some good book review Karma.
Kaelyn:46:26 Yup.
Rekka:46:26 And go leave positive reviews. And of course, as we said, remember three star review is considered critical.
Kaelyn:46:31 And just remember you're probably gonna make someone's day.
Rekka:46:34 You make someone's Day with a four or five star review that just pick your favorite moments without spoilers and just gush for a little bit. It doesn't hurt anybody and it feels really good.
Kaelyn:46:43 Yup. And you're going to make someone's day, Two people because they're editor's going to go [squealing]
Rekka:46:47 Yeah. And the people, they share it with
Kaelyn:46:51 Yes exactly
Rekka:46:52 - next to them in the living room that they read it aloud.
Kaelyn:46:54 Your editor gets just as worked up and excited about these things as you do. So,
Rekka:46:59 Yes.
Kaelyn:46:59 So anyway, um, that's a happy note to end on, right.
Rekka:47:03 Hey, speaking of reviews,
Kaelyn:47:04 Oh.
Rekka:47:05 If our listeners could leave us a rating, or a reveiw -
Kaelyn:47:08 Yes, speaking of reviews.
Rekka:47:10 That would be so amazing. Go Find Apple's podcast platform and leave a -
Kaelyn:47:14 Whatever form it exists in this future.
Rekka:47:18 Yeah, we still don't know. Maybe you do. Maybe, maybe we still don't. Maybe -
Kaelyn:47:22 You can comment and let us know.
Rekka:47:23 Yes. And so leave a star rating on Apple's iTunes, whatever it is, podcast platform. And if you have a little bit of time to say why you love the podcast, the reviews really help boost that algorithm even more. We like to feed the algorithm.
Kaelyn:47:41 Rekka, look at you with your segways today. I'm so impressed.
Rekka:47:43 I got this going on. I got you. Um, yes. So all, all power to the Algorithm and um, let's please, if you could leave a rating review, you can also send us your publishing and writing questions at @WMBcast on Twitter. Our DMs are always open. If you're a little shy and uh, at @WNBcast on Instagram, it's a little harder to collect questions there, but you can find some cute photos of our mascot, chunky boy on Instagram.
Kaelyn:48:13 And also some pictures of uh, guess what we're going to do later today?
Rekka:48:17 We are going axe throwing.
Kaelyn:48:18 Rekka's taking me to throw axes.
Rekka:48:19 Speaking of bad reviews and figuring out healthy ways to get around them.
Kaelyn:48:24 I'm so excited. I've never done this before. And um, we're gonna see how many fingers I have left when, uh,
Rekka:48:30 if you're holding the ax correctly, the fingers should not be in any danger whatsoever. Well you say that you did mention you're putting tea in your vodka later, so yeah.
Kaelyn:48:40 Yeah.
Rekka:48:40 So, um, so come engage with us on Twitter, Instagram. You can also find us and support us if you're able on patreon.com/WMBcast.com And that will help us pay for a transcription and, um, audio production so that we have more time to come up with great answers for your publishing and writing questions.
Kaelyn:49:03 Yep. So, uh, thanks everyone so much for listening. Uh, this was fun episode.
Rekka:49:08 Yeah, we got.
Kaelyn:49:10 We got on the soapbox a little bit at the end there.
Rekka:49:12 But I think every author is on that soapbox with us. It's like dancing on the head of a pin.
Kaelyn:49:15 Fair, um fair.
Rekka:49:16 We have a special month of topics coming up, so we'd love to collect questions
Kaelyn:49:23 Yes we do, we mentioned this in a previous episode that we were thinking of doing it. We're definitely going to do it. Oh, we're going to do submissions September.
Rekka:49:30 Yeah.
Kaelyn:49:31 Which is, we're gonna do four episodes that month, so weekly.
Rekka:49:35 Weekly episodes.
Rekka:49:37 And we are going to talk about submissions. Um, we're kind of putting together what our topics are going to be, what we're going to cover every week. But if we get any particular feedback about things, people would like to hear about anything they have questions about, uh, we can definitely factor that in. Um, so yeah, four episodes in September and we're going to be talking about submissions because I think that is,
Rekka:50:02 That's a big one.
Rekka:50:02 That's a big one for a lot of people.
Rekka:50:04 That's the gatekeeper.
Rekka:50:04 Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, when we were planning out episodes, we, we had some topics we wanted to talk about and then we decided maybe we should just group all of this together. And then two weeks between them seemed like too much. So we're gonna -
Rekka:50:19 And only two episodes on the subject and said no, there's, no way
Rekka:50:22 Yeah and we were writing down what we want to talk about and there were, there was a lot. So, um, yeah. Anyway, uh, send us, send us questions about that or even, you know, we'd love to hear like your own experiences with things and um, what you wish you knew, what, what no one told you, what you were afraid of and it didn't turn out that way at all or what you didn't even know to be afraid of honestly.
Rekka:50:43 So, you know, give us the whole, the whole experience is the way you understood it. And um, we'll, you know, maybe one of our, um, neat things can be to like read people's experiences if they're willing to share them.
Kaelyn:50:56 Definitely.
Rekka:50:56 Mark, if you give us your story, definitely mark whether or not you want us to share it. Um, so yeah, that's something that's coming up. So if you hear this now, we are probably already planning to record, so do send us your questions quickly. I know that September seems like it's really far away, but you know how this works, the year evaporates.
Rekka:51:13 Yeah I can't believe.
Rekka:51:15 Anyway, so that's coming up. So look forward to that and we will talk to you in two more weeks and, um, we will be picking a question from the audience, kind of, um, picking a topic that seems to be coming up a lot, so, so, Yep.
Rekka:51:30 All right. Well, thanks everyone so much for listening and, uh, we'll see you in two weeks.
Rekka:51:33 Yeah. Leave that rating and review and really appreciate it. Huh?