Episodes
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Episode 7: Will My Editor Tell Me It's Sh*t?
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
We’re back to our usual format this week and we’re talking about that question that’s lurked in the back of every writer’s mind: Is this thing I’ve written any good?
Rekka and Kaelyn spend this episode discussing the various things that can derail your book, who will tell you about it, and what to do next.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any lingering thoughts or feelings about Endgame that you just can’t get out of your head.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
=== Transcript ===
Kaelyn: (00:00)
Welcome back to another episode of the we make books podcast. I'm Kaelyn Considine
Rekka: (00:04)
And I'm Rekka Jay
Kaelyn: (00:05)
And we have um, I think a really good episode.
Rekka: (00:08)
It's a little telling about the, the fragile mental state of an author
Kaelyn: (00:12)
Yeah
Rekka: (00:12)
Because this one comes to us from a listener. The question was posed as "Will my editor tell me my book is shit"? Which you laugh. But I mean
Kaelyn: (00:21)
[laughter] I laughed a lot when I saw that.
Rekka: (00:21)
But it is the question, isn't it?
Kaelyn: (00:26)
Yes, it is.
Rekka: (00:26)
Like everyone wants to know is someone going to tell me or are they just going to let me put this out in the world as is? But the other half of this, the implied half of this question I think is, is my book shit?
Kaelyn: (00:35)
We talk about both of those. Um, we do talk a lot about, you know, getting feedback from your editors, but we also do delve into like the hey, maybe don't with this book.
Rekka: (00:46)
Yeah, maybe you could just not.
Kaelyn: (00:48)
Yeah. So it is an uncomfortable conversation that I think a lot of people are curious about because writers I know from much experience in this area have this question constantly, I won't even say lurking in the back of their mind
Rekka: (01:01)
It is forefront. It is,
Kaelyn: (01:02)
It is just the playing on loop.
Rekka: (01:05)
Yeah. Nevermind rose colored lenses. These, this is, you know, the metaphorical lens by which we, we look at other work that we don't see the process to get it to publication.
Kaelyn: (01:16)
Yup.
Rekka: (01:16)
And then we look at our work and you know, what's the phrase that you're comparing your rehearsal to other people's performance
Kaelyn: (01:22)
Perfomanaces?
Rekka: (01:22)
Performances.
Kaelyn: (01:23)
And I'm going to qualify here real quick. This is not, we're not talking about imposter syndrome.
Rekka: (01:27)
Right.
Kaelyn: (01:28)
This is not, I wrote something really good and I think it's bad. This is books that genuinely have problems.
Rekka: (01:34)
Right. So, um, but a lot of authors do go into the process of putting it towards publication, not knowing whether their book has problems
Kaelyn: (01:43)
Yes.
Rekka: (01:43)
Or how they would know. So involving an editor in some way in your book publishing process is going to help you sort of filter out those questions. But then there's the question of are they just going to take my money or are they gonna, are they gonna give me the honest feedback that it's shit. So we get into that at all these different stages in all these different types of editors. Um, who is going to tell you it should and when.
Kaelyn: (02:14)
Okay, this one comes from a listener and, uh, the submitted question was, didn't say you wanted it anonymous, but just because of the reason -
Rekka: (02:33)
Kind of the nature of the question.
Kaelyn: (02:34)
Yeah.
Rekka: (02:34)
We're going to, we're going to leave the question as anonymous. Will my editor tell me my novel is shit?
Kaelyn: (02:40)
Um, maybe,
Rekka: (02:43)
So we have to sort of frame this a little
Kaelyn: (02:45)
Yeah, let's give a little context here
Rekka: (02:47)
Because, um, I happened to know that this author who is posing this question is self published.
Kaelyn: (02:53)
Okay.
Rekka: (02:54)
So to me that means the question of who is the editor is potentially a freelance editor.
Kaelyn: (03:02)
Yes.
Rekka: (03:04)
Um, there's also of course we're going to get into, um, the other relationships with editors. You might have as in um, an editor that your publisher has assigned to you or assigned you to. It depends how I'm feeling that day. Whether you feel assigned or gifted.
Kaelyn: (03:20)
[laughter] Gifted, always gifted,
Rekka: (03:22)
Always gifted.
Kaelyn: (03:23)
Your editor is always a gift, Rekka.
Rekka: (03:25)
Editors, a precious, precious gift.
Kaelyn: (03:26)
Precious gift. Um, that cause an existential crisis
Rekka: (03:30)
[laughter] All good editors should.
Kaelyn: (03:30)
All good gifts should.
Rekka: (03:35)
So, um, so those are, you know, two different tracks by which you might find yourself with an editor. And then there are different levels of editing. And so we're going to try and get through all the different ways that we could see this question being interpreted.
Kaelyn: (03:51)
Where, uh, the different points you may hit someone telling you, hey, so here's the thing.
Rekka: (03:56)
So I read your book
Kaelyn: (03:57)
And um,
Rekka: (03:59)
It's shit. [laughter]
Kaelyn: (04:01)
No one should ever say, let's, let's get that out of the way, right here. If someone is telling you, especially someone in any sort of a professional capacity, I read this in its shit. Maybe don't talk to that person about your book anymore.
Rekka: (04:15)
Maybe.
Kaelyn: (04:16)
Maybe.
Rekka: (04:16)
Unless you ask them.
Kaelyn: (04:18)
Well yes.
Rekka: (04:20)
They might repeat the phrasing back to you, if that's the phrasing you used.
Kaelyn: (04:23)
Yes. yes.
Rekka: (04:24)
Hopefully they're just don't have a flat out. Yeah, no, it's shit. Please stop writing.
Kaelyn: (04:29)
Yes.
Rekka: (04:30)
I'm going to take your pens away now. And I think that's partially what we're afraid of. If it reaches publication and people don't like it.
Kaelyn: (04:36)
[laughter] Give me your pens, that's it. You're done.
Rekka: (04:37)
Turn in your keyboard.
Kaelyn: (04:37)
Turn in your keyboard and then they break it over your knee in front of you.
Rekka: (04:41)
That's an expensive keyboard.
Kaelyn: (04:43)
I only had to do that once, but my knee was bruised for a week afterwards.
Rekka: (04:47)
Um, you know, they don't look like they're going to be that resilient, but the keyboards are tough.
Kaelyn: (04:51)
Yeah, I guess the author like cried and stuff a lot too. But I was mostly just worried about my knee.
Rekka: (04:54)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (04:55)
Bruises.
Rekka: (04:55)
Yeah. Um, so regarding a freelance editor.
Kaelyn: (05:00)
Yes.
Rekka: (05:01)
If you have hired that freelance editor as a developmental editor, then it is under that expectation, which of course you should always clarify in your, in your starting conversations -
Kaelyn: (05:14)
Yes
Rekka: (05:14)
- in the contract that you definitely signed with them. When you get started.
Kaelyn: (05:18)
You have always signed a contract. You have always talked about expectations
Rekka: (05:23)
Yup
Kaelyn: (05:23)
It's going to be a running theme every time you hear us talking about anything.
Rekka: (05:25)
Yes. But let's, let's just say it's assumed, um, that you want that editor to give you feedback about the structure, about how well the, the novel or we're assuming you're going with a fiction novel. Um, how well it's working overall and you know, if it's, well, how would you Kaelyn as a, as somebody who reads manuscripts and works with authors to analyze them ...
Kaelyn: (05:56)
In this alternate universe where I'm serving as a freelance editor and someone's hired me.
Rekka: (06:01)
Well I mean, it's freelance or whatever, you know, you're giving honest feedback about a manuscript and what are the qualifications, what are the criteria by which you would say like, this is really not working. Like what are some of the pitfalls that stopped the novel?
Kaelyn: (06:16)
Yeah, that's a good thing to, to get out of the way. Uh, right off the bat. Um, right off the bat, things that would make me say this is just not going to work immediately is if the writing's bad.
Rekka: (06:31)
Okay.
Kaelyn: (06:31)
If your, if your writing is bad, that you can't fix that in post so to speak.
Rekka: (06:39)
Right.
Kaelyn: (06:39)
Um, I
Rekka: (06:40)
And my writiing is bad, you're referring to like the style of the prose, the voice.
Kaelyn: (06:45)
Yes. If, if the writing is just not good, that's not, I won't even say that's not an easy fix. That's a hard fix. That is, you know, you've got to take some time and -
Rekka: (06:56)
Find a coach or something.
Kaelyn: (06:57)
Take some classes and hey look, you know, I think there's some shame in that and there shouldn't be because no one is born a good writer and there's nothing wrong with, you know, even just, you know, going online and reading some articles, watch some youtube videos, you know, there's people out there that'll, you know, broadly help you give you ideas to improve your writing. But you know, taking writing classes is not a bad idea. But the thing is that if I get a book and the story is outstanding, but the writing's bad, I don't, I can't teach you to write better. I can't teach you how to construct a sentence and you know what punctuation is used for and how grammar works. Um, that's not, that's not my job and I don't have time for it to be frank.
Rekka: (07:40)
How bad does punctuation have to be before you send the person
Kaelyn: (07:44)
I'm joking about the punctuation, um -
Rekka: (07:47)
Just to be clear comments are voice
Kaelyn: (07:49)
Commas, [laughter] I'm getting you a mug.
Rekka: (07:53)
[laughter]
Kaelyn: (07:53)
All of all of you authors, all the, all the Parvus authors are getting a mug that says "Commas are not voice". Some of you are getting mugs that say dashes are not commas.
Rekka: (08:04)
[laughter]
Kaelyn: (08:08)
But, um, when I say the, the punctuation, I mean like the punctuations gotta be agregious as in like periods and things being used incorrectly. Um, so, but if the writing's bad, that is a major red flag to me because I can't fix that. Um -
Rekka: (08:27)
Or you could potentially hand walk somebody through it. But if they're at the point where they don't even understand that it's not good.
Kaelyn: (08:34)
I'm not going to, because I, this sounds harsh. I don't have time.
Rekka: (08:41)
Right.
Kaelyn: (08:41)
And also sounds harsh. It's not my job. That's, um, that's something you should already have a firm grasp on by the time you get to me and a developmental freelance editor is probably going to tell you the same thing because -
Rekka: (08:54)
They're going to start to walk through that manuscript and they're just going to say, I have to make notes 10, 20 times per sentence. This is not -
Kaelyn: (09:00)
They're um, you know, unless they just go back to you and say, hey look, here's my notes on the story. Also, you need to work on writing.
Rekka: (09:09)
Also, you're going to have to pay me more to keep working on this.
Kaelyn: (09:12)
Yeah
Rekka: (09:12)
Like if you are signing a contract with them, they probably see a sample of your writing so that they can build it properly.
Kaelyn: (09:18)
Oh. I would hope so. Yeah.
Rekka: (09:19)
So, um, you know, note to editors out there, if you're getting into freelance editing, make sure you see a sample before you give them a quote -
Kaelyn: (09:25)
Before you sign up for something, because -
Rekka: (09:25)
Because you don't know what you were getting into if you haven't seen it yet.
Kaelyn: (09:29)
Yeah. So that's, that's the first major thing is how the, how good is the writing? Um, other things that are going to kind of flag me if you will, are um, well things in there that are offensive just right off the bat. If there's stuff in there that is like offensive, I'm going to go like, okay, well can't fix this.
Rekka: (09:53)
Yup.
Kaelyn: (09:53)
That's not something I want to get myself involved in. Um, and I think, you know, people listening to this are going to go, oh, well I don't like, you know, what could, you know what could be offensive? You'd be amazed,
Rekka: (10:07)
[laughter]
Kaelyn: (10:07)
Like you laugh, but like I get some stuff that it's just like, what, what? Um, and again, if you're a freelance editor, get a sample because you don't, you don't know what's coming your way and you don't know who you're dealing with.
Rekka: (10:21)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (10:21)
And um, you know, awful people also have computers and word processors -
Rekka: (10:26)
And ideas.
Kaelyn: (10:26)
And ideas. Yes. Um, those I think are probably right off the bat. the two main things, and I'm approaching this also kind of as an acquisitions editor.
Rekka: (10:39)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (10:39)
Um, when you start to get the next layer down is I call it like the Silly Test. Is this a little silly?
Rekka: (10:52)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (10:52)
Is there kind of like stuff going on here that is confusing and I'm having trouble following. And the premise of this is just not engaging or compelling. It's just a little bit silly. Um -
Rekka: (11:06)
Tthat one is sort of, I feel like is a little bit -
Kaelyn: (11:08)
It's subjective.
Rekka: (11:09)
It's very subjective. And it also might have a lot to do with the style in which it's written.
Kaelyn: (11:13)
Yes, definitely in the intended audience
Rekka: (11:15)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (11:15)
Is another is another big facet of that. Um, but does this, uh, can it follow the story? Is is another next level like, you know, once I finished the first chapter, do I have kind of an idea of what's going on or am I supposed to have an idea what's going on -
Rekka: (11:34)
Right.
Kaelyn: (11:34)
- and I don't. Um, and that that kind of carries over more into the, you know, what we're going to get into with, um, feedback.
Rekka: (11:43)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (11:45)
So I would say those three things, two things right off the bat writing, is it offensive or upsetting in some capacity? And then one layer below that is, is this making sense off the bat?
Rekka: (11:58)
That's as an acquiring editor, um, and potentially, you know, you're trying to think in the capacity of like someone has brought this to me and I agreed to help them with it. Um, so when you have this general idea of whether it's working or not, how do you bring that feedback back to the author?
Kaelyn: (12:19)
Well, the feedback you're going to get from acquiring editor of is I give this book is not right for us. I don't like this book is a rejection letter and that there's a very good chance that'll be your only interaction there. Um, and you know, you can go back to listen to our previous episodes and all. I always throw this quick qualification in - a rejection letter does not mean your book was bad,
Rekka: (12:41)
Right?
Kaelyn: (12:42)
Sometimes it just means it didn't work.
Rekka: (12:45)
Or you sent it to the wrong publisher.
Kaelyn: (12:46)
You sent it to the wrong publisher or it just was not right for that publisher at that time. I've definitely sent letters out that, you know, we're like, hey, this is not a bad book. It's just know what we need.
Rekka: (12:55)
Right. Sometimes you do send a rejection because the book needs more work than -
Kaelyn: (12:59)
Well ...
Rekka: (12:59)
- or that person's writing practice itself needs more work.
Kaelyn: (13:04)
Yeah, exactly. And I would say right off the bat about from, from the acquisition side, a little less than half of the rejection letters I send out right off the bat are writing related -
Rekka: (13:18)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (13:18)
- they're, stylistic there. Nope. Can't work with this. Um, so that's a good good, you know, little note is work on your writing.
Rekka: (13:28)
You know, there's always ways to be improving when.
Kaelyn: (13:30)
Just keep writing.
Rekka: (13:30)
Keep writing. Keep reading.
Kaelyn: (13:33)
That is the best way I think to get better at writing is to read a lot.
Rekka: (13:39)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (13:39)
If you're wondering, you know, an acquisitions editor is probably not going to send you a lot of notes if it's just like a standard rejection -
Rekka: (13:47)
Right.
Kaelyn: (13:47)
Because we get hundreds of them. And again, it's, you know, I'm sorry to say we don't have time.
Rekka: (13:53)
Right.
Kaelyn: (13:53)
Um, I don't have time to send out three, 400 personalized emails with lots of notes and suggestions. Um, I won't say I wish I did -
Rekka: (14:02)
[laughter]
Kaelyn: (14:04)
- because I just, you know, it's not not what I do, but, um, sometimes you will get, you know, like specific notes back from acquiring editors.
Rekka: (14:15)
Um, how do you, when you do send specific notes back, how do you handle the, the topic of, of not breaking their hearts.
Kaelyn: (14:26)
Okay.
Rekka: (14:26)
Too hard.
Kaelyn: (14:28)
So me personally, a lot of times if you're getting notes back from me, and I think this goes for a lot of, a lot of people, you know, both acquiring editors and otherwise and it's like, listen, this book isn't right for us right now. Here's the thing, I liked it -
Rekka: (14:43)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (14:43)
- but here are the reasons that this wasn't going to work for us. Um, I'll be blunt. They can be hard to - I'm sure as the author it can be hard to read because there might be things in there that we're saying, look, this, this part right here, this is not good. Um, and that might be something that's near and dear to your heart. That may be one of your darlings.
Rekka: (15:08)
Um, are you saying like the book has no theme and the author goes, but I worked so yeah, hard on my themes.
Kaelyn: (15:12)
Yeah. Sometimes it is miscommunication in and it is miscommunication in the author's part where they think they are really getting something across and it's just not coming through. And that by the way is where maybe a freelance developmental editor can be very helpful.
Rekka: (15:31)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (15:32)
Um, but when I try, when I write these, I'm not, you know, no one is going to send you an email that's like, and this part sucked. What were you thinking? And this is shit, this is horrible. Like, you know, it', it's going to be very clinical. I try to keep it professional, straightforward. Right. And one of the things is that, you know, I try to bring up the parts that I did really like because it's like, hey, you know, maybe you can use that to strengthen this part. If someone is sending you things that are angry sounding or unprofessional, that person is not professional. Um especially if they're working at a publishing house, they should not like, so if you get something back like that, you didn't want to talk to that person anyway.
Rekka: (16:15)
Right.
Kaelyn: (16:16)
Um, that's -
Rekka: (16:18)
Of course. What do you do if you are at a publishing house and that is your assigned editor?
Kaelyn: (16:22)
Well we can, we can get to that.
Rekka: (16:25)
We do.
Kaelyn: (16:25)
You know, we can get to that later. Um, yeah,
Rekka: (16:29)
That's, yeah, so but let's assume that um, you know, I think we've covered in a sense how how you can expect to get a response from a freelance editor in, in the sense that they're going to come back and they're going to, if this was part of their job, like if you hired a freelance editor for story structure, they're going to come back and tell you where things are working, where they aren't working, what it might need to get pulled through.
Kaelyn: (16:57)
Unless -
Rekka: (16:58)
Overall it's just really like, it's only 5% of the way.
Kaelyn: (17:02)
At what point do we hit critical mass -
Rekka: (17:03)
Right
Kaelyn: (17:03)
- and say this is not workable.
Rekka: (17:05)
That's going to be, I think subjective on the part of the editor of -
Kaelyn: (17:09)
Yeah.
Rekka: (17:10)
- based on what effort they've promised you based on their, um, schedule based on your contract and based on the conversations you've had, these are all going to be things where the editor is going to have to make a judgment call of like, look, I, I this, I'm going to return your deposit or whatever. This is just not going to happen.
Kaelyn: (17:31)
Yeah. I won't speak for freelance editors and how they operate because with that sort of thing, because everyone's a little different. And I mean they did, you know, they did do work. They did provide your notes and feedback. So, you know, it's, that's just -
Rekka: (17:43)
In theory the deposit is nonrefundable and they've put time into it to even to get to this point. Um, they may feel better giving you a refund depending on how quickly they, what the deposit was and also how quickly they determined that they could not work with you. If you've hired an editor freelance to help you with coaching or story development, chances are they're going to be prepared to bring you feedback that tells you what's working and what's not. And they're not going to say it's shit, but they are going to emphasize that you really need to work on say your writing style or your ability to put words together into a sentence.
Kaelyn: (18:19)
So here's, here's what I would suggest, and this was another thing we were talking about a little earlier is at what point do you get Beta readers involved in this? And I would say that if you're looking to hire someone and pay them to do this, being involved in a writing community and getting people to read at least some of this beforehand before you do this -
Rekka: (18:42)
Could probably save you a lot of money.
Kaelyn: (18:43)
Save you a lot of money, time and heartache because especially people you know that you're friendly with and you know, of course they'll have their own biases because they know you and they're friendly with you, but -
Rekka: (18:53)
Right.
Kaelyn: (18:53)
Hopefully, you know, I think, I mean I'm not involved in any but my interactions from writting communities, I think you guys are all pretty straight forward with each other.
Rekka: (19:02)
I mean it depends. I think on the, like you said, the relationships that you have with the people, if they feel that you are committed to the work, they're going to give you better feedback than if you know, you seem like you're more casual and not really ever going to do anything with it.
Kaelyn: (19:22)
Yeah, that's true.
Rekka: (19:23)
Um, because if you are, if you are new to writing but you were very enthusiastic, then hopefully you will write so much that you will eventually improve and, and they don't really need to give you the feedback of like, you got to keep working. If they're talking about submitting this for, you know, representation or to a publisher during, uh, you know, open submission or something, then you might need to take them aside and say, Hey, look, you know, I, it's not that you can't submit these things, but I think you're going to find difficulty getting tractions and you need -
Kaelyn: (19:56)
It's rough. We need a little more, a little more work on this.
Rekka: (19:59)
So the question with, um, Beta readers is how much effort should you expect from your friends for free? I mean, you know, like obviously you can take your Beta readers out to dinner and it's not a direct transaction, but, um, if you are tasking them with reading your 700,000 word, super epic,
Kaelyn: (20:18)
Don't write it, don't talk about it. You know what, I'm just going to stop you right there. Don't write that. Just don't.
Rekka: (20:23)
But 700,000 words is an accomplishment.
Kaelyn: (20:25)
I've gotten one of those -
Rekka: (20:27)
And you read the whole thing.
Kaelyn: (20:29)
I got a 700 and something word manuscript once through submissions, the file was so big, I thought it was a pdf. It was a word document. Um, and it was book one.
Rekka: (20:46)
Well the good nesw is by this person writing this much, they are going to improve by book three.
Kaelyn: (20:51)
Here's the thing, they weren't a bad writer.
Rekka: (20:52)
Okay, that's good.
Kaelyn: (20:54)
That's 700,000 words is not going to get them ... [laughter]
Rekka: (20:57)
The enthusiasm, um, that gets you through 700,000 words is going to improve your writing over time. Um, but it may not get you a book deal very quickly. Um, you are, you have some things to learn about expectations and how much paper costs such -
Kaelyn: (21:12)
[laughter]
Rekka: (21:12)
and such things
Kaelyn: (21:12)
I can't even, I can't even imagine.
Rekka: (21:14)
So, um, so your Beta readers will hopefully be able to give you feedback and hopefully they won't, um, they won't feel that they need to read the whole book if they can identify these problems right away. But you can also say if you're worried about, you know, if you don't even know whether your book's any good, tell your beta readers -
Kaelyn: (21:35)
By the way, the fact that you can take a step back and go is this good, is a level of self awareness that it takes people a long time to actualize.
Rekka: (21:45)
Cause there are some people who have no idea that there's any chance that book might not be any good at and these people might need a reality check.
Kaelyn: (21:51)
Yeah. There's, I mean this is, this is a thing that happens to writers a lot, which is completely understandable is you guys live in your head with your characters in your book, and your world, and your story for so long that everything makes perfect sense to you. Getting it onto the page and uh conveying it cleanly to other people maybe.
Rekka: (22:10)
Might be a skill to work on.
Kaelyn: (22:12)
That might be something that -
Rekka: (22:14)
So your Beta readers have given you feedback and you feel like you are ready to take it to your freelance editor. Your freelance editor has given you some feedback. But I wanted to move on to just mention, um, that if you hired a freelance editor for line edits or copy edits -
Kaelyn: (22:32)
Mmm hmm
Rekka: (22:32)
- it's, you should not expect necessarily that they are going to tell you that the book's no good -
Kaelyn: (22:38)
Yeah
Rekka: (22:38)
- cause that's not what you've hired them for at this point by saying I want line edits are saying I want copy edits, you are saying this book is, is on the way out to production.
Kaelyn: (22:47)
It's done. Yeah.
Rekka: (22:47)
So their job is not necessarily that they may have an opinion on whether they think it's good but they may not feel that it's what you've hired them to provide to you. So make it clear that like at any point, if, and again this is subjective, so they may not feel like you may have hired a freelance editor who normally reads romance, but their quality is, is fine for, you know, line edits or copy edits on any type of book.
Kaelyn: (23:12)
Yeah.
Rekka: (23:12)
So they may not even like your genre. So, um, at this point, again, you may want to be thinking in terms of if you haven't run it past anyone who has the opportunity to tell you, yes, this book is working or not. Um, maybe back away from hiring a copy editor or a line editor, proofreader, because it's, it's still, um, potentially something that needs more work than you've given it so far.
Kaelyn: (23:40)
Yes. I this, and this goes back to, you know, expectations up front, be very clear. You know, if you're hiring someone for a copy or line edit, that's what they're gonna do. Um, you know, depending on the person, depending on how much they liked or maybe disliked your book, maybe they'll give you a couple of like, oh, Hey, I noticed this little thing. But, um, we're kind of dancing around the how, how do I know if this is good or not and who's going to tell me?
Rekka: (24:10)
Right.
Kaelyn: (24:10)
How do, and the part that we're kind of dancing around is the, you should not try to publish this story. Now I think there's two ways to break this up. One is the story and one is the way you're telling the stories. But I'll start with the story first because that's the easier one. So this is subjective obviously, um, people like all different kinds of things. Um, some people will love a book, other people will hate it. If somebody goes back to you and says, I hated this book. I hated this story. Don't immediately just say, okay, well they're the end all be all on this.
Rekka: (24:53)
I will start over.
Kaelyn: (24:54)
I will start over. Um, if multiple people are coming back to you, especially people that read and like the same kind of things that you do or the same thing that you're writing, then it's time to start thinking about that. Now I'm going to also qualify this, that if that's coming back from your developmental editor, that carries more weight than if it's coming back from your friends.
Rekka: (25:14)
Right.
Kaelyn: (25:15)
Because your developmental editor, to be blunt, they just know more about this stuff and they should be better at being objective and impartial -
Rekka: (25:24)
And providing feedback
Kaelyn: (25:25)
- and providing feedback about this. Um, you know, I definitely have gotten books where it's like, hey, this isn't for me, but I can see this is a good story. Um, so being able to separate yourself from that is something you're going to get more from your developmental freelance editor, um, if you so choose to hire one. Um, so if they come back to you and go, listen, this story is just not good, then you have to transition to the conversation about, so what do I do?
Rekka: (25:57)
[laughter] Right.
Kaelyn: (25:58)
And we'll come back to that because then the other side of this is you're not telling the story well
Rekka: (26:05)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (26:05)
And that could just be writing. Um, and you know, we talked about, we talked about that earlier or it could be the way your book is structured, it could be stylistic, it could be, you know, like you're not creating an intensity. You're, the story is flat. This, the characters are not engaging the, there's any number of things that could just say like, look, I'm not sure I'd go forward with this if I were you. So then you know, again, you're, if you're hiring someone to take a look at it, their opinion on this carries more weight than your friends. They're going to have an eye for this thing and they are also going to have the impartiality that you need here because you do need that. So then all right, your developmental editor is, like, listen, this just isn't working. Maybe you know, they're like, there's a lot to fix here and to be blunt, I'm not the person to help you do it.
Rekka: (26:59)
Mmm hmm.
Kaelyn: (26:59)
Then you have to decide what you're going to do after that. Um, and that's the scary question. Do I scrap this?
Rekka: (27:05)
Right. How much passion do you feel for this? This is something like where you said, I just want to write a book someday and people like to talk about dogs. I'm going to write a book about dogs cause people like dogs and therefore people will like my book. Like if, if that's the mentality you have going into your writing, you probably are okay. Maybe saying like, yeah, I probably don't actually want to try this anymore or something.
Kaelyn: (27:23)
You know, what if this is resonating with you, go back and listen to our previous episode with Chris Ruz because he went through a lot of this kind of stuff. So um not to the point of anyone telling him this is bad, scrap it, but like having to majorly overhaul.
Rekka: (27:38)
And it's something that I did as well with Flotsam when I brought it to a developmental editor, well writing coach really, I had packed in so much writing and as you mentioned before, was my world building clear? It really wasn't. Um, there was a lot of pacing issues. Like the writing coach told me that it took til the end of chapter 21 before he cared about the story. I had tried to deliver the backstory and uh, introductions for each character like in sequence and it was just -
Kaelyn: (28:12)
Yeah, and these are, let's see like this is the thing is that these are all good examples of things that are fixable. When we get to this just is not going to work, there's no clear answer for that and a lot of it is going to be how much time are you willing to put into doing this? Now again, I will say there are certain things that will make me say this book is just not going to work. Um, one thing is again, if it's offensive.
Rekka: (28:36)
Right. If the premise itself and its core -
Kaelyn: (28:39)
If the concept of the book is offensive, it's not going to work. One of the other ones, and I'm actually surprised we got this far into the podcast without me ever bringing this up before, is if I feel like I'm reading a book in which it is a nominal retelling of your life in which you are -
Rekka: (28:58)
A hero.
Kaelyn: (28:58)
The hero, best main character. No one is ever going to really want to read that. Um, I'm actually, I am surprised we got this far into the podcast because that is one of my big, my big things. Yeah, no, there's definitely like, I mean, you would be amazed how many books I get that it's like I'm going to go back and look at this person's query letter. Yeah. This, this is about them.
Rekka: (29:20)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (29:20)
Yeah. [laughter] No, because unless you've had a really, and hey, look, some people have really interesting lives. That's great. Here's the thing, write a biography.
Rekka: (29:30)
A memoir.
Kaelyn: (29:31)
Yeah. Write an autobiography, not a fictional recounting of what you wanted your life to be.
Rekka: (29:37)
Right.
Kaelyn: (29:38)
Those are, those are two big things that may just make your book to the point that it's like, this isn't publishable. No one's gonna want to read that. I mean, maybe it's self publishable.
Rekka: (29:48)
Yep. I mean you can just click a button.
Kaelyn: (29:50)
You can click a button that you may have some -
Rekka: (29:52)
Any book itself publishable.
Kaelyn: (29:53)
Yeah.
Rekka: (29:53)
That's, that's the point. So you um, you have this feedback and you have to decide do I care about writing enough to keep trying is kind of the core question is is this something that I feel enough passion with that I can take this as a challenge to improve myself versus this is so hard. No one appreciates the work I put into this so far. Cause let me tell you, your work is as a writer, if you get into this, you are always going to be putting that much work into it forever.
Kaelyn: (30:23)
And I mean this is something we, you know, we keep saying in this thing is you have to decide how important this is to you. There's no such thing as turns in this business, right? There isn't: I did all of this work. I am owed this now. There isn't, I have been doing this for 20 years. It's my turn to get a book published. There's no such thing as that. You are not owed anything -
Rekka: (30:47)
Right
Kaelyn: (30:47)
- in this.
Rekka: (30:48)
Be a writer because you love to write
Kaelyn: (30:50)
Exactly
Rekka: (30:50)
to because that's the only part you can guarantee
Kaelyn: (30:51)
Yes, exactly
Rekka: (30:51)
that you will continue to write.
Kaelyn: (30:53)
I would caution against going into any of this saying if I put enough time and work into this, I will get this published. Now you obviously have to tell yourself that, but it's not true because you are not owed anything.
Rekka: (31:10)
Right.
Kaelyn: (31:10)
It is not, if I do all of these things, it will be my turn now There's no turm, we don't have a giant whiteboard with, you know, people going like, okay, well I mean Rekka's been on there for awhile. I guess we'll move her up to the top now. That's not how this works.
Rekka: (31:24)
And you're not earning badges and eventually all the badges can be traded to the mission dealer for a contract.
Kaelyn: (31:27)
Yup, you don't trade them in. That's not how this works. So you have to decide do you want to keep putting the time and effort into a story that is clearly just not working and you know, maybe you've gotten feedback from friends, from an editor, maybe you've gotten a lot of rejection letters is the form of feedback that you've gotten. So you have to decide how much of your self you want to keep putting into this because Rekka can tell you, it's draining.
Rekka: (31:55)
Right.
Kaelyn: (31:56)
And if you're writing because you just really like to write and it's like, Eh, whatever. I'll just keep submitting these. If it gets published, great. If not, you know, I just really enjoy the process. That's awesome. Keep doing that.
Rekka: (32:04)
That's a very healthy way to do this.
Kaelyn: (32:05)
That's like, that's amazing.
Rekka: (32:08)
Yes.
Kaelyn: (32:08)
But don't think that eventually this is going to pay off if you just keep grinding away. I mean I hope it will.
Rekka: (32:17)
Right.
Kaelyn: (32:18)
But -
Rekka: (32:18)
And self publishing is an option
Kaelyn: (32:21)
Self publishing is an option.
Rekka: (32:21)
And if your end goal is I want to have books on shelves. Well self publishing is not going to get them on physical shelves very easily.
Kaelyn: (32:31)
Digital ones.
Rekka: (32:31)
But you can get on Amazon, you can do, you know, you can put a link on Facebook to your book and your friends and family can buy it.
Kaelyn: (32:38)
Yeah. So you have to decide how badly do you want to keep doing this and that's the other thing is then, then maybe it's time to take a step back, take some right in classes, hire a writing coach, join a writing group. There's lots of things you can do to improve your writing, but as for your actual story that you're just so hell bent on, you want this to be the story, you got to decide.
Rekka: (32:58)
Right.
Kaelyn: (32:59)
Are you going to keep working on it and get better
Rekka: (33:01)
And maybe put it in a drawer for a while and come back to it when you've written some other things and just played with maybe backing off and telling a story from the ground up again, because it might be that you put too much time into this and you've got a bit of a mess.
Kaelyn: (33:15)
Yeah. And the other, the other thing here I think is that we fall because self publishing is such an accessible option, now don't fall into this, 'Well they just don't understand. They don't like it. I'm just going to self publish it and then I'll show the world'.
Rekka: (33:30)
Right. I mean it's possible that that is the case possible.
Kaelyn: (33:33)
It is possible.
Rekka: (33:33)
I mean, anything's possible.
Kaelyn: (33:34)
It's not the majority of the cases.
Rekka: (33:37)
Um, we are running short on time for this one. So I just wanted to bring up the other little bit that we haven't really addressed is say your book has been picked up for publication and you're working with the editor at your publisher.
Kaelyn: (33:50)
Oh yes, okay.
Rekka: (33:50)
Are they going to tell you your book is shit.
Kaelyn: (33:52)
Okay. This is, you know, one of the things I always say, they would not have bought your book if they didn't like it,
Rekka: (33:58)
But say you rewrote the first 40% of your book.
Kaelyn: (33:59)
After they bought it?
Rekka: (34:01)
After they bought it, they said, hey, we want to change this. The way that the intro is building -
Kaelyn: (34:06)
Oh, okay.
Rekka: (34:06)
- and we want to incorporate some more POVs and um, changed the stakes a little bit.
Kaelyn: (34:12)
That's not them telling you your book is shit. That's them telling you your book is Great. We're going to make it awesome.
Rekka: (34:17)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (34:18)
Um, that's, and I know saying rewrite the first 40% doesn't sound like fine tuning, but functionally it kind of is. Sometimes it's not.
Rekka: (34:26)
It's more of a rippling 40% than it is
Kaelyn: (34:28)
Yeah.
Rekka: (34:28)
like a straight trash it and rewrite it.
Kaelyn: (34:31)
Because also, here's the thing, if they hated the first 40% of your book, they would not have bought.
Rekka: (34:35)
They would not cause -
Kaelyn: (34:35)
You don't read the first 40% to get to the other 60% of it.
Rekka: (34:40)
But so say you make a change and they feel that it made it worse. They're going to tell you.
Kaelyn: (34:44)
They're going, they're absolutely going to tell you. Um, but here's the thing. They're not just going to tell you it's bad.
Rekka: (34:48)
Right.
Kaelyn: (34:48)
You're going to go like, okay, so listen, I know I said do this. It's not quite working. Let's sit down and you know, figure out why this isn't working and talk about this.
Rekka: (34:57)
Yes. Because if you've made it to the point where you have a publisher who has assigned you an editor or you have been assigned to an editor, they like your book enough to put the work into it. And
Kaelyn: (35:05)
Exactly.
Rekka: (35:06)
the structural basic things that we mentioned, like writing style and um, world building and the story itself, these things have already kind of got their stamp of approval and now it's just a matter of tightening it up and moving it along. And so at this point it's very unlikely that your book is shit even though in your heart as a delicate author, you may feel that no one's talked to you about your book for 10 days. Your book must be shit.
Kaelyn: (35:31)
It's because they're ceremonially and burning it.
Rekka: (35:33)
Yes. There is a pyre.
Kaelyn: (35:34)
Yeah.
Rekka: (35:35)
In the, in the lobby of your publisher. And if you go on Tuesdays books, we'll just be on fire.
Kaelyn: (35:40)
Well, we have to, we have to cleanse.
Rekka: (35:42)
Well, it's a sacrifice to the book that is being released that Tuesday.
Kaelyn: (35:45)
Yeah. No. Also the lesser books are taken to strengthen -
Rekka: (35:49)
Right.
Kaelyn: (35:49)
- that the one true book and bright -
Rekka: (35:51)
Wave the smoke over the new release to to gain its power.
Kaelyn: (35:54)
Or send the ashes to the author so that they may ingest them and become powerful.
Rekka: (35:58)
So now you know what's really happening in publishing.
Kaelyn: (36:02)
None of that's true. So now how many people are like I knew it!
Rekka: (36:08)
Revealing the conspiracy. this is how the cabal comes after Kaelyn.
Kaelyn: (36:11)
Yeah, no, I mean one day I'm just gonna I know I'm going to have a black hood put over my head and thrown into a van. I'll just be walking down the street. Um, no. So like your again, they would not have bought it if they didn't like it. Now that's not to say that it might have problems.
Rekka: (36:29)
Right, but they were problems that they see as
Kaelyn: (36:33)
Not insurmountable. Yes. And an acquisitions editor goes to the editorial board, they go to the sales team and they say, I like this book. I think we can sell it. Here's why. So someone is already going in and making the case for your book.
Rekka: (36:47)
And don't you wish you could just get a recording of that writers? I know like Kaelyn's like, no, you can't hear the conversation, but it would be so nice to hear that conversation.
Kaelyn: (36:54)
Where we have these conversations recorders don't work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so he would not have thought it if they didn't like it -
Rekka: (37:04)
And didn't have a plan for it.
Kaelyn: (37:05)
They didn't have a plan. And you know, if you listened to episodes two and three
Rekka: (37:10)
Yes
Kaelyn: (37:10)
- uh specifically, I think we talked a lot about this in
Rekka: (37:13)
Three
Kaelyn: (37:13)
Yeah, in three. Um, you should have, you all had conversations with them before. That's nothing should come as a galloping shock here. And again, but if you're getting abuse from anyone involved in this process, you shouldn't want to work with them. Now Rekka you had said, what if it is your assigned editor?
Rekka: (37:32)
Right, you don't meet them until after the contract is signed. Now you owe a manuscript and this editor's tearing it to shreds.
Kaelyn: (37:38)
I'm going to say this. That is not the answer anyone's going to want to hear. It depends. Um, you know, I think we all like to think we exist in this world where everyone's nice and kind to each other all the time. I work in finance, so I know that's not true.
Rekka: (37:53)
And sometimes people have bad days and they don't communicate their thoughts well.
Kaelyn: (37:57)
Yeah. I mean hopefully no one's yelling at you. Um, I would say if they are, try to deal with it person to person, write them back and just kind of go like, hey, so let me try -
Rekka: (38:10)
And stay professional yourself rather than devolving into that into the combativeness.
Kaelyn: (38:14)
And I know that's hard if you're the writer and the person on the other end is, is one who is in the more obligated position to be professional.
Rekka: (38:22)
Right.
Kaelyn: (38:23)
Not saying that that's ca rte blanche free because it's not. And um, you know, as the author, you don't want to be the unstable one -
Rekka: (38:31)
Yes.
Kaelyn: (38:32)
- in the relationship. Um, but you know, you try to, try to stay professional, try to take it with a grain of salt. Um, I have this thing I do whenever I get like something, you know from someone that's like, why, you know, what's the matter with you? Why did you do this? Is I've got to take a breath and then I'll either, if I can, I'll go talk to them in person or call them and just go like, so what's going on here?
Rekka: (38:59)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (38:59)
That was kind of mean, you know, that wasn't really what I was expecting from you. And I find a lot of times, that I I can sense that you're upset. So.
Rekka: (39:11)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (39:11)
I find that a lot of times just having a conversation about that will kind of help. And I think talking to the actual person is a good step. We have this sort of like email armor where we can say and get away with -
Rekka: (39:27)
But we also forget that tone does not come across well in text.
Kaelyn: (39:30)
Tone does not come across well in email and text. Exactly. Um, so you know, if, do you know how many emails I get back from people going like, oh, that's not like from authors. That's not what I meant. Whoa, Whoa, whoa. That's not what I meant. It's like, no, no, it's, it's uh, something you get very good at -
Rekka: (39:48)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (39:48)
- being an editor is speaking author. That's not going to upset them. [laughter]
Rekka: (39:52)
Yes.
Kaelyn: (39:55)
Um, so yeah, just, you know, if you get something back that's like foaming at the mouth, you know, raving anger or -
Rekka: (40:02)
There's probably something else going on.
Kaelyn: (40:03)
There's probably something else going on and my maybe close the laptop for the day, go do something else and then come back to it later,
Rekka: (40:13)
See if you can reread something else into it and if not have a conversation.
Kaelyn: (40:16)
Then have a conversation.
Rekka: (40:17)
Yeah.
Kaelyn: (40:17)
Um, so, but that, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your manuscript. That's, that seems like a personal relation issue.
Rekka: (40:23)
That's more of a personal - So it, so the short answer is yes, a good editor is going to tell you when your, when your manuscript has problems and depending on where you are in the stage, your relationship with that editor, you may get more or less help.
Kaelyn: (40:41)
Yes.
Rekka: (40:41)
And then you might hope for, but also the earlier in the path to publication that you can catch problems the better. And that will also help your prospects with, you know, submitting and querying it and, or getting good feedback once it's released. And if you have Beta readers, you know, maybe hit up just one of them just, you know, real quick with the sample chapter before you really get into the structural editing and say like, where, where is this now? And have a list of questions that you can ask them that's going to be better than just like, yeah, I liked it or I didn't really eh, meh. Um, you know, if you have a list of questions that can, that can help you and include the question like, is does the, you know, do the ideas come across well or um, are the sentences well written and compelling, you know, something like that.
Kaelyn: (41:27)
Yeah, just broad feedback is a good place to start.
Rekka: (41:31)
Yeah. And then, you know, the more specific it gets, the more money you're going to spend with the freelance editors. And if you've already gotten this past a publisher like it, okay. It's impossible for you to take this advice as a writer. I know this, but if you have a publishing contract, your story is not shit.
Kaelyn: (41:50)
Say with us everyone, they would not have bought it if they didn't like it.
Rekka: (41:56)
All right, we're just going to hand out mugs with that on it. Yeah.
Kaelyn: (42:00)
That can be, that can be our next, uh, mug,our next one.
Rekka: (42:04)
All right. So I mean we can go on about this for a long, long time
Kaelyn: (42:08)
We go on about most things for a long time. Rekka and I have had very in depth conversations about, um,
Rekka: (42:15)
Everything.
Kaelyn: (42:15)
Commas. And how they're not going to
Rekka: (42:17)
Okay, we're not going to talk about commas - goodbye everyone thanks for listening!
Kaelyn: (42:19)
[laughter] But um, thank you so much for listening. Um, you know, we're really enjoying doing this.
Rekka: (42:25)
Yes. Yeah, 100%. And of course if you have any questions, shitty questions, submit them to us @WMBcast on Instagram and Twitter. You can follow along or support us @patriondot.com/wmbcast and you can submit questions that way or you can send questions to feedback@wmbcast.com and if you are enjoying this series and uh, want to share it with a friend, that would really help us expand our audience
Kaelyn: (42:51)
Spread the word.
Rekka: (42:51)
and get this advice to as many writers as we can help as possible. And you know, publishers who need to understand the fragile minds of the writers, you could leave a rating and review on Itunes, that will also help other people find us and we would really appreciate that. If you have questions about a submissions, we are going to have a submission September, so we will be gathering all your questions.
Kaelyn: (43:11)
Okay, I was gonna I was gonna save that.
Rekka: (43:12)
I know.
Kaelyn: (43:12)
All right. Well, yeah, so September we're going to be, that's going to be a four episode month and every week we're going to talk about a different part of the submissions process and hopefully we've got some stuff lined up.
Rekka: (43:24)
We have some stuff but if you have questions, send them to us and we will use them on the show. If, uh, if they fit into the conversation and, uh, otherwise we'll see you on Twitter and we'll talk to you next time.
Kaelyn: (43:35)
Thanks everyone. Bye.
Rekka: (43:37)
Yeah.
Tuesday Jun 11, 2019
Tuesday Jun 11, 2019
Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!
We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.
Like last week, this week we are doing something a little different. First and most exciting, we have our first guest! Christopher Ruz, author of The Ragged Blade joins Rekka this week to talk about his book’s long road to publication. Second, that’s right, it’s just Rekka on this episode. As Kaelyn will explain in the intro, she’s Ruz’s editor at Parvus Press and wanted to give he and Rekka the opportunity and space to talk about what it’s like working on your own verse with an editor. They had a great conversation and we think you’ll really enjoy it.
The Ragged Blade is currently in stores and online and you can (and should) find Christopher Ruz online @ruzkin on Twitter and www.ruzkin.com. Check him out and tell him that Rekka and Kaelyn sent you.
We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any lingering thoughts or feelings about Endgame that you just can’t get out of your head.
A transcription of this episode can be found below.
We hope you enjoy We Make Books!
Twitter: @WMBCast | @KindofKaelyn | @BittyBittyZap
=== Transcript ===
Kaelyn:00:00 Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Kaelyn Considine and I am the ‘editor half of the podcast and this week we decided that we’re going to do something a little bit different. Uh, the first part is that we have oh first ever guest, author Christopher Ruz, whose book ‘The Ragged Blade’ was released a week ago today, which would make that June 4th for those who might be listening at another time. Um, the second thing is that I’m not on this episode, and the reason for that is that I’m Ruz’s editor at Parvus Press and we wanted to have Ruz on because he had a really interesting journey of getting his book published. Um, you’ll hear all about it in this episode but it went from a short story, to a self-published novel, to a traditionally published novel, by my publishing company, Parvus Press. And we wanted to hear all about everything that led up to getting this published, and uh especially working by yourself to self-publish verse working with an editor. So, in the interest of podcasting journalistic integrity, I recused myself from the episode so that Ruz and Rekka could have a conversion on the real ups and downs of traditional verse self-publishing and working on things on your own verse working with a professional editor. Um, it’s a really interesting conversation, they both have some very interesting stories about how they got to where they ended up in their publishing careers. So it’s a really great episode, it sounds like Rekka and Ruz had a lot of fun recording it, um, I gave them carte Blanche to uh, talk about anything they wanted, including me, and uh, they did not hold back. And u, as always, we’d love to and want to hear back from our listeners. Any questions or feedback, or just general feelings you have about what you’re listening to – you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast and on our website, ‘wemakebookspodcast.com’ and you can email us there if you want it send us a question or a comment and we’re always happy to happy, if you’d like to have them remain anonymous. So, I think that’s everything, and we hope that you enjoy this episode with author Christopher Ruz.
02:02[Intro music]
Rekka:02:17 All right. So today I have snuck out of Kaelyn's supervision and I have uh, gone behind her back to speak to one of the authors at Parvus that Kaelyn edits for. I am speaking today to Christopher Ruz who is the author of the ragged blade, which as we are releasing this episode on June 11th, is now a week old. And so we're going to be talking from the other side of the release date. So um, Ruz has zero insight as to what it is like to have had the book out for a week. So we won't get into that unless you want to design your own fantasy week. Like, oh, it's amazing. 1 million copies sold in the first day. This is just astounding and I'm so touched.
Rekka:03:01 Well look,
Ruz: 03:02 Say it into being Chris.
Ruz: 03:04 We've all got our fingers crossed for that. That um, we'll just, I'm just going to wait and see right now,
Rekka:03:10 RIght.
Ruz: 03:10 Right now, a week before it launches, we're recording this. I'm in this weird sort of nether world where I don't know whether to be excited or scared and I'm just waiting for the publishing train to run over me and see what comes out of here.
Rekka:03:22 Sorry. The correct answer is why not both?
Ruz: 03:25 Yeah, probably yes.
Rekka:03:26 Um, frightened. Terrified. Uh, elated. Excited. Why aren't more people paying attention to me? Because don't they know I have a book coming out. And how is everybody just going to the grocery store and walking their dog? Like normal?
Ruz: 03:43 Yeah, I've gone through that a couple times. Yeah, just counting down the days. Um, so here in Australia, I think the book comes out on my Thursday and the US's Wednesday, so that's also really frustrating that I can't actually celebrate simultaneously with the rest of the world. But is what it is.
Rekka:03:58 Well, I mean you could, you just have to forego sleep.
Ruz: 04:01 I just have to, but I like sleep.
Rekka:04:03 Yeah. Sleep is wonderful.
Ruz: 04:03 I really like, I really like my sleep.
Rekka:04:06 That's, that's good. That's healthy. All right. So you might survive if you do uh practice. Good sleep efforts to, uh, to write the entire series as opposed to, you know, petering out because you've gone without sleep for the last two years.
Rekka:04:22 [laughter]
Rekka:04:22 I mean, I know Kaelyn can be awful, but um, I'm hoping, you know, she lets you sleep occasionally.
Ruz: 04:28 She's been pretty good with that so far actually Kaelyn's been very relaxed on deadlines. I don't know how she is for her other authors, but to me she seems to give me a little bit more slack so I'm maybe I'm special. Or maybe,
Rekka:04:40 I have the benefit of not being one of her authors, so I just assume the worst of her
Ruz: 04:48 [laughter]and you assume right.
Rekka:04:50 Exactly. So I'm sorry Kaelyn, who is going to edit this episode and for, so our audience knows if she left that in, it's because she is the worst and she's proud of it.
Ruz: 04:59 [laughs]
Rekka:04:59 Um, so your story, I mean like we're not just having you on because we have easy access to you as a Parvus author. And we could always just say like, hey, we're not going to put your book out unless you come on and talk to Rekka on We Make Nooks, but, um, we really want talk to you. And by we, I mean the royal we obviously, um, about the path that this novel has taken because it is not a typical story of uh novel publishing. And, um, I think it's, it's one that's really interesting. It's going to give some people some hope, I think. But it's also like, um, it's just a really interesting story that the path that this novel has taken. So I'm gonna let you introduce it. Um, why don't you give us your latest, um, elevator pitch because I love it.
Ruz: 05:49 [laughter]
Rekka:05:49 And, um, then also like tell us the background, the, and I'll just interrupt as I do to ask questions.
Ruz: 05:58 Yeah, no problem. So the pitch that we've worked out, which only came to us in the past week is essentially, um, it's an epic fantasy novel where a Bi guy and his young daughter are running away from extremely clingy ex boyfriend, who also happens to be a magician and the dictatorial ruler of his small kingdom. And so father and daughter are running away across this huge, wild, untamed desert, full of magic and demons and monsters. While his magician boyfriend is in hot pursuit along with his Zombie tracking dog.
Rekka:06:36 I mean, that's like every Tuesday. But you met us to tell it in a way that's new. No.
Ruz: 06:42 [laughter]
Rekka:06:42 Um, I am, about 11 chapters in 12 chapters in, as it turns out. Um, and I have really been enjoying the, like I feel the sand, you know, I can feel the sand in the narration and the, um, exposition and this experience of the main character, Richard, who is escaping somebody that is so clearly, he's not just a magician. He is pretty much the magician. Right.
Ruz: 07:13 Yeah.
Rekka:07:13 And that's an ominous threat that's in every scene. So every time he like stops to pick a rock out of a shoe, you're just like, no, keep going. Keep going.
Ruz: 07:25 [laughter] Yeah. That, um, that sort of atmosphere of constant dread and um, and that very, very tense pursuit to something that I tried to keep up through the whole novel. Uh, it's, it's very mad Maxy in a way, even though, um, even though fury road came out well, well into the, the writing of this book, I think it actually has that same sort of feeling of never being more than, you know, a couple of steps ahead of this incredible force that's pursuing you. Um, and it was really cool that you, you mentioned that you really feel what it's like to be in the desert because I tried to channel a lot of my own experiences into those scenes. So,
Rekka:08:05 And that's just between your house in the mailbox.
Ruz: 08:08 Little bits. So I grew up obviously in Australia, um, but my parents house backed onto this massive wild nature reserve, which is just kilometers and kilometers of completely untouched Bush land. And I just got there and get lost for hours, deliberately get lost and then wander in circles in the heat and the scrub and try and find my way back home. And so I'd actually developed a system of creating landmarks and attaching stories to little landmarks that I found along the way and essentially built up my own little fantasy map in my head that would let me navigate, you know, from my parents' house, six kilometers west into the bush and then back again. And so that's the sort of feeling that I was always trying to channel is that, um, the potential in the landscape and the danger that's always looking around every corner and just try to pick your way from one landmark to the next in order to stay alive. Except in my case, the threat was if I wasn't backed by a six o'clock, my parents would, you know [laughter] it wouldn't be good
Rekka:09:14 It wasn't a zombie canine chasing you.
Ruz: 09:18 No, but it felt like it.
Rekka:09:19 Something a little bit worse.
Ruz: 09:20 When you're seven years old. Yeah. Your parents
Rekka:09:23 Getting sent to your room.
Ruz: 09:25 Yeah. That's a scary prospect. So hmm.
Rekka:09:28 So this is, this book is coming out through Parvus press, but it is something that you have previously self-published. So that's like, that's the really interesting part. I mean, obviously the book is interesting. As I said, I'm, I'm a third of the way through it. And obviously, I'm like, okay, shut up Ruz. I need to go finish this now. But, um, the, the story of how you self publish this and then ended up, uh, well not re-, but like submitting it to Parvus and then going through Parvus to turn it into something entirely new, almost with just like, well, I'll let you tell it as I said, but, um, that's the story I really want to draw out of you today because I think it's interesting. And I, as I said before the call, we have clearance from Kaelyn to talk about every aspect of this. I have had authors on before whose work was published after it was self-published, but they have been told like, you do not speak of this. So I think it's just really interesting to get this side of the story from somebody who has permission to talk about it openly and freely. And you know, like there may be as much like black sharpie over this episode as you can imagine in a Mueller report. But let the, while you and I are talking
Ruz: 10:41 Right, keeping it topical Yup. Um, yeah, yeah. Let's go into it. Um, so if you go way, way, way back, um, this whole trilogy started as a short story. Um, so one of my first successful short stories, I think I've been writing for quite a while, but this is the first one that I actually felt like, you know, when you finish your first thing and you look at it and you're like, Hey, this isn't actually terrible.
Rekka:11:07 Yes.
Ruz: 11:07 And you have that moment where you're like, oh, I've graduated from awful writer to semi awful.
Rekka:11:14 I'm cogent.
Ruz: 11:16 Yeah. So I had that moment. And, um, I love the short story, which is just - this story forms, which is the, basically the backstory of the Ragged Blade. So if you're reading the ragged blade, you'll find that the present narrative jumps back into the past at various points where we're falling two stories simultaneously. And the short story was what is now the backstory. And I loved it. And um, sent around it didn't get published, but it picked up a Writers of the Future, um, award, which I was pretty stoked about. And so I thought, all right, how can I expand this? Spent a lot of time expanding it into not just one novel but three. So I, I already had this large plans sort of mapped out. So I smashed that out, um, over a period of a couple of years. And this is going all the way back to like 2007, 2008. So this has all been a long time in the cooking and I tried to sell the books everywhere. I think I queried everybody on um, agent query ran through the whole list, of publishes and nobody was biting. And looking back on it, it's pretty obvious why it wasn't that great of a book at the time. So I think it was about 2010 I gave it one more editing pass and self published. And so that was the start of my big self publishing career. Um, I say big self publishing career, it hasn't been
Rekka:12:35 But you do have many titles like, you know, compared to what a traditional, um, well this let's say this is your first traditionally published novel.
Ruz: 12:45 Yeah.
Rekka:12:45 You quote unquote debut as a traditionally published author, but you already have a whole stable of stories that you've written and released and gotten reviews on and it's, it's not like you've just been, um, quietly publishing into the void this whole time.
Ruz: 13:02 Yeah. Yeah. I do have, um, a bit of stock there. Yeah. It since I first published the ragged blade on back then it was called century of sand. Yeah. I've put out, um, and other I think four horror novels. Um, 10 or so spy novellas like I kept stacking up, but honestly my heart was always in Century of Sand I really wanted it to go somewhere and um, and people were enjoying it as I self published it, but there was still something missing. I think I still needed some professional eyes on it. And so it had been self published for five or six years when Parvus put up their first uh, roll call on Reddit that we're looking for people with a novel to pitch. And so I spoke to Colin there and I showed him century of sand and he said this isn't bad but it's self published. Um, we're not super interested in that at the moment and honestly
Rekka:13:55 Which is the response that is going to be typical for most authors. You've already self published something that a publisher is going to say, yeah, we want it to be the first ones to release your book, not the second ones.
Ruz: 14:05 Yeah. And I think that's perfectly fair. It was, it was a fair response. Also, we had chat about the amount of work that we need to go into it and he said, okay, if we were to take this on, we're going to have to break it into tiny parts and rebuild it from scratch. And I, maybe this is, this is arrogance, but I was really hoping he'd just say this novel is Great. We love it. We are going to buy it. We're going to do a spell check and send a straight out there and it's going to be beautiful. It turns out that was not the case.
Rekka:14:31 No,
Ruz: 14:32 It was, it was nowhere near that state. So yeah, me and Parvus we parted ways very amicably. And um, I kept in touch with Colin and we talked about different writing advice and publishing advice. So I think about two years after that, just every couple months we'd say hi and um, I didn't know Kaelyn at the time, but to any listeners, I can really recommend that if you are pitching you should pitch to Parvus and Colin because Colin is just lovely.
Rekka:15:01 Um, as compared to Kaelyn.
Ruz: 15:03 Kaelyn is, Kaelyn is terrible, terrible and terrifying, but Colin balances around a little bit. So, um, so yeah, I kept writing and started pitching another novel. I'm a Scifi story called God Factory and Colin had to read through that at some point and he came back to me and said, hey, I think your writing is actually improved quite a bit in between writing Century of Sand and writing God factory. If you could go back to century of sand and revise it to the same standard as God factory, we might take another look at it. And at that point I'd, I think I'd woken up at to the actual realities of publishing what goes into it and what goes into the editing process. So I was much more open to the idea of just trashing century sad down into its component pieces and building it up again. So it was with that promise and also the fact that I had the other two manuscripts for this entire trilogy ready to go. You know, me and Colin were able to shake hands and, and make the deal. And then we started the process of editing and Oh my God, it was even worse than I thought
Rekka:16:15 [laughs] You thought you were just going to take it down to paragraph level -
Ruz: 16:17 Just a nightmare.
Rekka:16:17 and put it back together.
Ruz: 16:19 Yeah, I thought, you know, oh well we'll check out some dialogue, visit some themes. Cut out some bad scenes. Holy Crap.
Rekka:16:28 [laughs evilly] Yeah. um Parvus may be kind of, you know, quote unquote new in town, but they, they really will like put a book through its paces in order to get it to the point where they feel like, yeah, no, we want to put her name on this. So even when they say like, yeah, we want to buy your book, they're like, yeah, just you wait.
Ruz: 16:47 Yeah. It made me realize that even after I think seven or eight rewrites for me to get it to the point where I was happy to sell, publish it, it was really still just a larval stage. There was so much in it that I hadn't seen. Um, there's so much that you can't see when you just head down in your own book for years.
Rekka:17:07 Yeah. We absolutely way too close to it.
Ruz: 17:10 Yeah. Um, and the changes that they recommended, it thought I, at first I thought that they were insane.
Rekka:17:18 [laughs]
Rekka:17:18 I'll say the first time I got into a Skype call with all the, um, the team at Parvus and they recommended some of the most sweeping changes. Um, I guess the books already out, so I can probably discuss some
Rekka:17:28 Mm hmm
Ruz: 17:28 Umm, minor spoilers. Um, for example, the first change they wanted was that I take two major characters and combine them into one, which is not impossible usually, but these two characters don't even run in the same timelines.
Rekka:17:42 Right.
Ruz: 17:43 So in the original book, there was a mentor character essentially like you call them an Obi-Won -
Rekka:17:48 Right
Ruz: 17:49 Style character who goes on an adventure with the magician over this long period. And then eventually meets another young soldier called Richard who he trains up. And um, Richard eventually takes on his mentors mantle. And this is two overlapping storylines of about, each one's about a 30 year storyline and they only meet for about five years in the middle.
Rekka:18:16 Mmm hmm.
Ruz: 18:16 And so the first piece of advice I got was we need to merge them into a single character, in a single storyline. And like that's not a couple paragraphs here and there. That's just,
Rekka:18:27 Yeah, that's like the entire frankensteining essentially of two halves of a story.
Ruz: 18:34 Yeah. Um, so yeah, a 60 year story got squeezed down to about 20 or 30 years. Two major characters who only ever intersected for few years suddenly became one. Motivation's got tangled, storylines all got tossed around and I hated it at first. I thought it was insane and it was not going to work and we're just going to tear the heart out of my book. And by the time I was done with that first editing pass, I thought their geniuses,
Rekka:19:03 [laughter]
Ruz: 19:03 This is so good now. It was in every respect.
Rekka:19:07 Mmm hmm, so it became a much tighter story as a result and, and you had to figure out motivations as you said. But I assume that means like everything became a lot more clear as to um, what you know was driving the story.
Ruz: 19:23 Yeah, everything was clarified because basically as I was speaking to the editing team, they'll pointing out that one character, the, that Obi-Wan style mentor character he had a stronger emotional bond or emotional tie with the primary villain. Then my new character Richard. And if I transpose the two characters and actually imported motivations from one end to the other, suddenly we have this incredibly, um, uh, it would be become a story driven by relationships as opposed to plot circumstance.
Rekka:19:50 Mmm hmm.
Ruz: 19:50 And as soon as I started making those changes, it actually, it was like a flower sort of unfolding. I saw all these potentials in, in these previous scenes and the way they'd spiral out across the whole book and then across the whole trilogy. And yeah, I loved every change I made after that.
Rekka:20:05 Now ....
Ruz: 20:05 I didn't like that I had to write the changes
Rekka:20:08 Yeah, exactly.
Ruz: 20:08 But I liked what happened after I'd made the changes.
Rekka:20:11 [laughter] So as you said, you've already had written books two and three of this trilogy now and, and this little change, um, or not so little, but you know, like this one change rippled out. And so, um, I know from watching you and Kaelyn interact on, on Twitter that you've been working probably just as hard on books two and three as you did on book one to get everything back into line. How is the, um, continuity, like are you having a lot of trouble getting to a point in going, oh God damn it. No, I changed that too.
Ruz: 20:45 Um, it's actually been okay.
Rekka:20:47 Okay.
Ruz: 20:47 I was really surprised that there was even more editing work to be done in book two.
Rekka:20:51 Mmm hmm.
Ruz: 20:51 Um, but because we finished book one before we even opened up the manuscript for book two, um, little actually flowed reasonably smoothly. I had a nice roadmap to work from.
Rekka:21:04 Mmm hmm.
Ruz: 21:04 Yeah. Book two was a mess as a result of these major changes because, um, as you notice in book one, we've got these dual storylines running and that continues through books, books two and three. It's the same structure for all of them. It's um, it's a present day adventure with storytelling, which takes us back to the past. And that's this running theme and the storytelling part in book two is massive. It's probably a third of the book as opposed to a couple isolated flashbacks and I just have to trash the whole thing.
Rekka:21:33 [laughs]
Ruz: 21:33 I was like 40, 50,000 words straight in the, in the bin.
Rekka:21:37 As a result of losing Obi-Wab?
Ruz: 21:40 Yeah.
Rekka:21:40 Yeah. Okay.
Ruz: 21:41 Cause yeah, he wasn't there anymore.
Rekka:21:43 Yeah.
Ruz: 21:44 Obi-Wan didn't exist. His mentorship and training didn't exist. Um, my new character, Richard suddenly had all these existing motivations and fears and doubts. So yeah, we started pretty much from scratch and so Kaelyn is holding onto a manuscript of a revised manuscript of book two at the moment and there's almost nothing left from the original
Rekka:22:07 Of the original. I've done that.
Ruz: 22:08 A couple of cool a couple cool fight scenes.
Rekka:22:10 Yeah,
Ruz: 22:11 That's about it. I think we retained like maybe 20,000 words out of 140, so it was just a butchery.
Rekka:22:20 That's a - that's a nice bite that you got to keep.
Ruz: 22:21 Yeah
Rekka:22:21 When I rewrote Flotsam, I think I kept all of three paragraphs
Ruz: 22:26 Oh wow.
Rekka:22:26 Of the entire original manuscript and, and you know, I think some character name stayed the same, but um, yeah, I mean mine's a whole long backstory of its own. I worked with the editor that I was eventually at Parvus when I, um, before he was at Parvus and I had hired him to help me work on it on its own. And, um, any we did, we like took the entire massive thing that I've been working on for like 10 years and just said, okay, we're just gonna put that over here. It's safe, it's fine,
Ruz: 22:55 [laughter]
Rekka:22:55 You know, but, um, you know, how about, how about we do a new first chapter and go from there. And so I did, I did the same thing. I ended up rewriting the whole thing just about from, and then, um, this was before I submitted it to Parvus and then I wrote book two again, still before I submitted it to Parvus, submitted it to Parvus, they had some more changes, which were small, subtle scenes that affected a whole heck of a lot.
Ruz: 23:21 [laughter]
Rekka:23:21 And then, um, and then now I'm like basically every written book two again. So yeah, a whole lot of empathy for you there. And that's anyone working with Kaelyn. I can't even imagine. What Kaelyn would do to me. I'm sorry Kaelyn. She- she assigned to the task of torturing you. But instead we're just like talking about her. [laughter]
Ruz: 23:40 I think it wouldn't make me so angry if they weren't always right.
Rekka:23:43 Yeah. That's the worst part.
Ruz: 23:45 But they are always right.
Rekka:23:45 They're just terrible people. Just like knowing stuff. And having good advice and seeing it from a distance and also, you know, from a marketability, it's, it's always good to have somebody who's got like a little bit of that, um, market in mind. You don't want to necessarily let that dictate everything, but it definitely, like when they're reading a book, they're thinking, is the audience gonna make it through the scene or do we need to tighten this up? And that makes very frustratingly effective, you know, method for like going over it and editing again. So we hate them, but we love them, but we hate them.
Ruz: 24:23 Yeah. At the same time, all the time.
Rekka:24:25 Yeah. So, um, how long, like is this whole process you said like 2007 ish. You were releasing it for the first time, sorry.
Ruz: 24:34 No, no, 2007. I started writing.
Rekka:24:36 Started it. Okay.
Ruz: 24:38 Yup. Um, can't remember the exact date, but I know it was in 2007 or very early 2008. Um, wrote it over about a year, revised it and then started submitting.
Rekka:24:53 Shopping it, yeah.
Ruz: 24:54 Yeah. Maybe around end of 2009 and kept it up all through 2009, 2010 until I decided to self pub. And that was right at the beginning of that early kindle revolution.
Rekka:25:06 Boom, yeah.
Ruz: 25:07 Yeah. Unfortunately I didn't quite get to ride the kindle. Boom. It turns out it turns out that even during a boom, it's a very selective boom.
Rekka:25:14 Yes
Ruz: 25:14 So, um, but I had a lot of fun self pubing and I learned so much through the process. So no regrets there. And then
Rekka:25:24 Yeah you had covers you had layouts. Um, now you are also a graphic artist.
Ruz: 25:31 I am a pretty average graphic artists. Yeah, I know some Photoshop. Um, I'm an art teacher from my nine to five, so that helps a little bit. So I understand composition and color theory and everything, but the, the real nitty gritty I'm not an expert on. And so for those covers, I hired an artist off deviant art to do, he did all three covers at the same time. Um, to the best that my, my budget could
Rekka:25:57 Right.
Ruz: 25:57 stretch at that time. And um, I, I love those covers still. They're pretty rough.
Rekka:26:04 Yes
Ruz: 26:04 But they're still pretty cool.
Rekka:26:04 You had three covers that you, um, commissioned on your own. And did you, um, did you hire layout artist? I mean, how much of the production process did you get to learn as a result of doing this that then sort of helped you, uh, understand where like Colin was coming from, when, when he'd later say like, oh we have to do this, this and this.
Ruz: 26:25 Okay, so for the self pub process, um, as said, I paid an artist to the covers but I do the topography and myself. Um, and I also put turn those covers into full paperback wraparound covers. So I only commissioned a standard ebook cover size, so I had to adapt those. And then, um, my wife does web design and she was the one who realized that kindle documents are just web documents. Yeah. So she converted my book into a Nice html and then everything else was me. So compiling, publishing, promoting, um, I just figured that out as I went along and it was awful.
Rekka:27:09 [laughter]
Ruz: 27:09 It's just a horrible process and I'm so glad that it's somebody else's problem now.
Rekka:27:14 So that's an interesting point. Like you have books that are self published and it looks like you probably can plan to continue self publishing at some level. Um, cause you have series that are, are self published, um, that you did not enjoy the process and it's not something where you're thinking to yourself, oh, you know, it's nice that Parvus wants this, but like I hate waiting on them to do a thing or I like I would have done that differently. Is Not something that's entering your mind at this point. You're just really glad to have a team.
Ruz: 27:48 Yeah, I love having a team and there are definitely parts of the self pub process that I love. So the immediacy of it. Um, being able to just smashing book together and run through it myself and then throw it out into the void is brilliant and obviously no waiting.
Rekka:28:04 Yeah,
Ruz: 28:04 Is brilliant because it's been a two year process from the time when I signed the contract with Parvus to The Ragged Blade actually coming out. Um, but at the same time working with the team there and actually having professional editors has done so much for the quality of the book, like a Ragged Blade would not have been a good book without their help. Um, and I love, I love what it's become as a result and I really wonder what would happen if I had that same professional input and uh extra sets of eyes on my self published work because for me the only thing that matters is telling the best story that I can.
Rekka:28:40 Right. Yup. I feel you there. That was definitely a thought when I, um, was trying to decide what to do because, you know, I was also thinking, oh, I'll just self publish this. I don't want anyone else's, you know, um, decisions or like neglect affecting this book's ability to be out in the world. Because I knew long it took to get a book published through traditional publishing and I said this, you know, I'm not going to wait that long and they're going to want change stuff. Stuff like, you know, those usual thoughts that I think lead to self publishing a lot. It wasn't even so much the like, oh, it's, it's terrifying and painful to put myself in front of other people and like hope that, you know, I get approval from somebody.
Ruz: 29:18 [laughter] Yeah, yeah ...
Rekka:29:18 It was just more like, I don't want anyone else's opinions in the way, but let me tell you, other people's opinions are fantastic. Sometimes it's really nice to have other people's opinions and also, you know, like the resources where, um, it's a lot of work to commission a cover artists and, um, do the art direction, do the layout. So I think it's interesting. Um, I think it's interesting that like you and I, well we ended up in the same place. We even sort of took the same steps, but at the same time, like for totally different reasons where I was just like, I don't, I don't want anyone else's approval. I just want to do this. And, and you would have been very happy with someone else's approval, but you also got tired of waiting around for it.
Ruz: 29:58 Yeah, pretty much.
Rekka:29:59 So just to recap the timeline, um, because we did start to trace it in detail. So in, um, 2010, you said you self-published and then
Ruz: 30:09 2010 or 2011, I believe.
Rekka:30:10 Somewhere around there, right around that time, which is funny. That's the same time that I decided that I was going to self publish this in 2016 is when Parvus opened. So their first call was when you, um, submitted to them and then it was 2017 when you had the relationship with them where you had sort of stayed in touch and they were keeping an eye on what you were doing. Like some weird creepy uncle and told you .
Ruz: 30:40 Yeah. That's about it, yeah. I think it was mid 2017 and it happened because I got back in touch with Colin. I just finished, I just finished polishing and polishing, polishing, um, the final book in this Century of Sand Trilogy. And I was looking at how will I was doing on Amazon with my self pub and it wasn't going so great. And meanwhile, Coin and Parvus had just released, um, I think at that time they'd put out Vick's Vultures, maybe one and two.
Rekka:31:06 Okay.
Ruz: 31:07 And
Rekka:31:08 Court of Twilight then.
Ruz: 31:10 Yeah, I think this was pre flotsam.
Rekka:31:13 Yep.
Ruz: 31:14 And they were doing really well. And so I messaged Colin and I actually got in touch by saying, okay, my books aren't going so great, but I've got the third book ready. So the trilogy is wrapped up. So it's a whole sort of trilogy product now. Um, what would you recommend for me really getting this off the ground? You know, should I commission new cover artists? Um, should I start a marketing program? How much should I invest in these various areas? And that was the trigger where he said, Oh, you finished the book book three now and I've seen your recent writing. That's not too bad. Let's have a chat. And so yeah, that was mid 2017 and then it was the third quarter of 2017 when the contract came through and I printed it off on my school printer and, and snuck away to my cubicle to sign it and scan it before anybody caught me misusing school property.
Rekka:32:01 So yeah. So it's interesting and that's actually advice that Colin has always given is don't be afraid to ask questions of other people in the industry because everyone in the industry wants to help and they're interested in, you never know what could happen as a result of like asking, you know, starting up a conversation and you didn't go in with it like, Hey, you rejected me once, but now I've got three of these. So you know, like it's going to be three times as good or, or whatever.
Ruz: 32:27 [laughter]
Rekka:32:27 Someone might've said, um, it was, hey, you know, you've been really helpful over these past couple of years. Would you mind giving me some more advice? Basically, you know, I appreciate your time, etc. I'm sure you were very polite, but, um, and, and that turned into an unexpected conversation with Colin of, Hey, I've been thinking about that book in the last year and a half or so.
Ruz: 32:50 Yeah. Like keeping in contact with people in, in the industry, in all respects is essential. And I have never once encountered anybody in the industry from authors up to publishers and promoters who doesn't want everybody to succeed. There is, there's no competition here. I mean you might see competition between big publishers vying for top spots on New York Times bestsellers list
Rekka:33:14 Of course, yeah.
Ruz: 33:14 But when you get down to down to the human level, everybody here wants everybody else to win. And there is nothing lost by just making as many friends, like genuine friends as you can and keeping in touch and lifting other people up because it leads to unexpected things for you and also for them. So yeah, really glad I didn't lose Colin's email. Really glad that I just chatted with him like a friend. I didn't expect any publishing deal to come out of it. I just wanted a friend's advice on how to proceed and he was lovely and he gave it. And I've gotten that same feedback and help from everybody who I've ever talked to in the industry.
Rekka:33:51 That's awesome. And we just recently had our episode of interviews from the Nebulas where, um, we talked to over 20 people. Not all of them had sound quality that made it into the episode, but we talked to over 20 people and from um, you know, the new authors who were coming there to meet their agent for the first time or, and hadn't sold their book yet to authors who had been around the block a few hundred times. You know, John Scalzi you know, like everyone there was just everyone here's friendly, don't worry about it, you know, talk to people on a like relate on a personal level and you are going to find so many people that can help you or just like be friends and be a friendly face. So, um, yeah, I definitely, I would echo what you're saying. And speaking of John Scalzi since we just, um, got off Twitter before we got on this call.
Ruz: 34:48 Yeah, yeah.
Rekka:34:48 You had the, the fun experience. This is one of the, like the nice things about being traditionally published, I have to say is going Twitter and seeing a stack of books that has arrived at John Scalzi's house and he takes the photo and he throws it up on Twitter and there's your spine. And how's that feel?
Ruz: 35:08 That was just really weird because I've been following Scalzi for years. Again, really lovely guy. I met him for like five minutes back at Worldcon 2010 and he at that point, he was, he's just blowing up everywhere.
Rekka:35:25 Yeah.
Ruz: 35:25 Old Man's war. And I think the second Ghost Brigades was out and he was the name everybody knew and he was just such a chill guy.
Rekka:35:32 Yeah.
Ruz: 35:33 As everybody is. And so I've been following him for years and watching this, his ARC piles turn up on Twitter. I'm thinking one day maybe,
Rekka:35:41 Maybe.
Rekka:35:41 One day, Nah, Nah, impossible. Ridiculous. And then I wake up this morning and people are re tweeting Scalzi's book pile and there's The Ragged Blade. And I actually got this sort of full body, weird contraction, like the whole universe is just pressing in, just going it's appening. So I freaked out a little bit and then I sat down and had a cup of tea and tried to calm down prior to this interview. So yeah, that was cool. And um, and it obviously it does happen. Don't let go of your little, your dreams to turn up in other people's ARC piles cause it happens.
Rekka:36:19 Yeah. There's something like, I love that. Um, I love that everyone is so like environmentally conscious now that they're like, oh, you know, maybe ARCs are sort of not the thing that we should be just mailing out unsolicited things like that. But so it's so nice to see a book just randomly appear in a pile of, you know, books that maybe it's, it's not even so much like that person's influence on social media, but just someone you respect and someone that um, does something like that, so nice for the community. Like, um, loves to get excited about new releases for other authors. And that's something I don't really think you get on the self publishing side is, is that sort of like, um, like community shiver of an, of an ARC pile, you know?
Ruz: 37:09 Yeah. I think if we go entirely e ARCs from, from here on the, it's going to be a massive loss.
Rekka:37:18 It's so sad.
Ruz: 37:18 There is something very communal about sharing those books around and being able to pass books physically from one hand to the next and, and let this, you know, people's stories escape into the wild like that. I am an environmentalist but I'm never going to give up my paper
Rekka:37:36 Right, I know
Ruz: 37:36 book until I die. Sorry guys.
Rekka:37:37 Yes. There are industries out there doing much worse for the forest than, than our little books. I have to say that.
Ruz: 37:42 Yeah. Yeah. Sorry everybody. But I love my books.
Rekka:37:45 I do like that my um, Star Trek level data pad can hold like all these books and that's very handy. But yeah, it's, it's just there's the cover art and an ebook and an ereader. It's just not the same. And the spine.
Ruz: 38:02 It will never measure up. Yeah. We have, in this house we have two kindles and my wife and I both have, you know, reading apps on our phones and we still spend like 10 times more on paper books than we do on ebooks. So
Rekka:38:16 Yeah,
Ruz: 38:17 I'm sorry. It's an addiction. It's never going to stop.
Rekka:38:19 Yeah. And that's not one that I think anyone should ever give up. That would be terrible for us.
Ruz: 38:23 Yep.
Rekka:38:24 Alright. So you have, um, okay. You have traveled to the future where your book is already out.
Ruz: 38:31 Yup.
Rekka:38:31 Now is the time to ask your future self and maybe like you'll hear the echo in a few days and be able to answer yourself. Um, what questions do you have for yourself that you would ask June 11th, Ruz?
Ruz: 38:47 What I want to know from June 11th Ruz besides the obvious, you know, did it sell well? Is the sort of,
Rekka:38:54 We're just assuming a million copies on the first day.
Ruz: 38:59 Um, I'd like to know how to ignore what's happening with the current release and keep my head down on editing the second book.
Rekka:39:08 Yeah.
Ruz: 39:08 Because I think it's going to be really easy to just get carried away with obsessively checking reviews and sales numbers and lose myself in that instead of,
Rekka:39:17 Absolutely.
Ruz: 39:17 Yeah. Instead of focusing on the actual important tasks of just telling the next story. So,
Rekka:39:22 Well I will, if you need me to.
Ruz: 39:24 Future Ruz, get to work.
Rekka:39:24 I will be sending you direct messages on Twitter because I saw your little, um hint at what your next story was and I absolutely want to read that. So I will be bothering you on June 4th to say, hey, how's that story going? What's your word count?
Ruz: 39:37 Uh, that one. I don't know if I'm going to start that one until Century of Sand three is most of the way done right now. I'm just in the researching stage. I know, I'm sorry.
Rekka:39:49 That's the worst thing about knowing writers is hearing what their project is and knowing you're not going to read it for like three or four years
Ruz: 39:55 Minimum.
Rekka:39:55 Just for the record. Now you're the worst.
Ruz: 40:00 I knew that already though. I've been the worsr for a while.
Rekka:40:04 So do you have, um, I, I didn't ask Kaelyn already. Do you have release dates that you know, ballpark release years, for books two and three then?
Ruz: 40:13 Um, hopefully very ballpark. We're looking at book to coming out at the same time next year, so May to June and book three the year after that.
Rekka:40:21 Okay.
Ruz: 40:22 So we'll keep you on a pretty tight schedule.
Rekka:40:23 Yeah, yeah. Perfect.
Ruz: 40:25 Having having the manuscripts already ready in a embryonic form helps a lot and also having a rough plan for editing helps a lot.
Rekka:40:33 Okay. Have we not covered that this isn't even an embryo. This is a string of DNA.
Ruz: 40:38 Okay. So with the second book I've already, I've already run through the second book. Okay. It has been polished to the new Parvus plan and so now it fits all the timeline changes that we made to the first. Um, it's still pretty rough like it is, it is a mess, but at least it sits in the same timeline and continuity. And so Parvus has that now hopefully they're going to get that back to me within a couple of weeks to a month and then they want that one wrapped up hopefully by the end of this year. So then we'll have a six month lead time for printing promos, line edits and everything. Fingers crossed. So yeah, hopefully one a year, which is a really scary schedule.
Rekka:41:21 Scary for the self publisher or scary for like, oh my God, I put 18 months into the ragged blade. How am I going to do the rest of this in eight months?
Ruz: 41:30 Oh, if I wasn't working, if I was, if I was a happy little fulltime writer.
Rekka:41:36 Yep.
Ruz: 41:36 Then this would be no issue because there was a time when um, when I was self publishing and I was having some success, I quit work and for a year and a half I just wrote and I was putting out three full length novels a year, really happily plus short stories and promos and novellas and that was no issue. But now I, I'm doing a grownup job,
Rekka:41:58 Not just the grownup job. This is not a nine to five. You are teaching students and so you've got lesson plans like you, this is not a job you get to leave at work.
Ruz: 42:07 Yeah. So I am horribly, for anybody listening, I'm a part time teacher so I'm only actually in school and being paid four days a week and I think I clocked a minimum 70 to 75 hours a week every week
Rekka:42:23 Pay teachers more, everyone who can hear me.
Ruz: 42:26 Yeah, so, so you can do the math on that as to how much time I spend working out of school and then try to figure out where I fit writing in between. But looks, if Stephen King's can pull off being a high school teacher and raising three kids in a caravan, then I should really not complain.
Rekka:42:45 Yes. But eventually you will aspire to become Stephen King and then you can quit the teaching job and become a full time writer and go up to a cabin in the, in the snowy hills and finish your book.
Ruz: 42:56 Oh, that's what we're all aiming for. I suppose. You know, everyone wants to hit that point, but I guess the reality for pretty much every author is that there's always going to be the, the nine to five in the background.
Rekka:43:08 Okay. So you bring up a good point. Um, you used to write, um, significantly more output in a year and I saw you had some really great advice in a blog post on your site about how you reapproached after you became a teacher because as you said, it's very difficult to find those times where you can dedicate to your own work. So what was the advice for one, you know, run through the advice that you had and, and you know, it's, it's been awhile since you wrote that blog posts. Like how is it going? Cause there's always updates and life always changes, behaviors are easy to settle into.
Ruz: 43:46 Yeah. So I think the advice I gave was mostly um, cutting out distractions, really compartmentalizing your time, um, finding really small achievable goals and just repeating them over and over. I'm setting time constraints. So what this all means is that sit down in front of your computer, disconnect the Internet, set yourself a a hundred word goal, right? Just 100 words within two minutes or three minutes or whatever time you want to use. Like I usually aim for 500 words and half an hour. That's my approximate thing. And keep an eye on the clock. So if you get distracted, you can, you've always got somebody looming over your shoulder, you know, the time is looking over your shoulder. Um, and there were, I can't remember all the tips off the top of my head, but they really just
Rekka:44:38 One was a dedicated writing space and you know, be aware of where you write best.
Ruz: 44:41 Yep. Yeah, that was something that I found, um, I really lost track of as I became a teacher was it, I'd come home from work and I'd sit in the living room doing marking until like eight or nine o'clock and then I'd open up my laptop and try and sit there still in the living room writing on the couch and it was terrible. I just couldn't get anything done because it just didn't feel like a professional writing space. So you have to find the space that actually feels like the professional space with that's your shed out the back or study or, um, I, I found that I write really well on trains because I can't get internet.
Rekka:45:15 Yes.
Ruz: 45:15 So yeah, find the space, cut out all distractions and such and then instead approached in tiny little bite size pieces of achievement. And that worked really, really well for me for awhile. Um, so in my school holidays I was, I put out, I did an entire rewrite of Century of Sand 2 and wrote a fresh novella in the space of a couple of weeks using that method, which was amazing for me. And then I got back to school and I got given unexpectedly a whole bunch of new classes to teach. Um, and they've just eaten my life since then. So that method has its gotten fractured a little bit. Yeah.
Rekka:45:55 It's often that the methods wrong though, I think. Um, it's just something you have to rededicate yourself to because as you said, like you had this moment where like not only were you returning from a holiday but you are returning to like a entire structural shift in your schedule. So rather than say like, okay, I need to like I have this chance to, to set my schedule going forward. That includes this time you just sort of went, Whoa, what is happening? And then like you let the schedule get away with taking over is what it sounds.
Ruz: 46:32 Yeah.
Rekka:46:32 I didn't mean to couch you just now, but I'm just like, I just didn't want you to disparage your own advice because I think it's your advice is even more important now. It's just a matter like we have to be constantly self evaluating and be mindful of like what we're allowing ourselves to get away with. Because as I said, writers do tend to be a little bit distractible. And if you could sit on the couch for 45 minutes and think that you're still going to get your writing done, you absolutely will. Right?
Ruz: 46:57 Yeah. Yeah, no look, you're right. The method is fine. It's me that is not living up to my expectations.
Rekka:47:04 I didn't mean to really go there. But you know,
Ruz: 47:06 No, no, you did.
Rekka:47:08 I was told to torture you.
Ruz: 47:09 Yeah. Yeah.
Rekka:47:11 I have now achieved that. I feel good.
Ruz: 47:14 If I ever get a chance to sit down and reapply the method that works great. So, um, like right now I've, I've got an amazing six day weekend, which is ridiculous concept. So I'm going to, I'm going to sit down and block out distractions and try and smash it out, some edits on a novela project and see if I can get myself back into the headspace. So fingers crossed that I still have that particular magic.
Rekka:47:39 Now, not to mention...
Ruz: 47:40 And you yelling at me on Twitter will probably help,
Rekka:47:43 I will yell at you on Twitter. But of course like at the end of the six day weekend is also your book launch.
Ruz: 47:48 Yeah. [laughs]
Rekka:47:50 So this is the perfect time to take my advice and not let like major shifts like get you off course when you finally, you're setting yourself up. So
Ruz: 48:01 Yeah.
Rekka:48:01 Cause I have to, I have to leave with some advice here. So
Ruz: 48:05 Yeah. Um,
Rekka:48:07 Of course I don't have a book coming out on Tuesday,
Ruz: 48:10 [laughs] Yeah, but you've been through this, you know, you've been through this yourself now more than once. So yeah, breaking down big goals into nice, manageable smaller goals doesn't just make them more achievable. It, um, I think it actually removes a lot of the weight ]
Rekka:48:23 Yeah ...
Ruz: 48:23 That sort of psychological weight attached to them. So it makes you feel like you don't have to be perfect with each one. You just have to get each tiny step out of the way and it
Rekka:48:34 Right and the first draft doesn't need to be edited, you know, like
Ruz: 48:37 Yeah.
Rekka:48:37 That's just not the order of the things happen ever. Like it never works that way.
Ruz: 48:41 Just has to exist
Rekka:48:43 Yeah.
Ruz: 48:43 And it exists one paragraph at a time and that paragraph doesn't have to be perfect. You just have to put it down. So yeah, that's if, of all my advice, that'll be the most important part is just keep nibbling away at it steadily and don't worry about quality, just get it done.
Rekka:49:02 Perfect. That's true. And now you can go follow it
Ruz: 49:06 Yeah ...
Rekka:49:06 While you're trying to keep that Internet unplugged next week, which is going to be torture for you.
Ruz: 49:13 Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that, but it has to be done.
Rekka:49:16 Yeah
Ruz: 49:16 Um, and if you really want, since you're so psyched about it, I will write a tiny little intro teaser to this new project that you really want to see.
Rekka:49:25 Yes.
Ruz: 49:25 So at least then I'll have, I'll have something concrete and I can start adding to it instead of just being a nebulous concept.
Rekka:49:32 Exactly! Awesome. See, I'm so helpful. I love being helpful and also I get stuff. So awesome. I'm looking forward -
Ruz: 49:41 It's also blackmail.
Rekka:49:43 Well no, it's coercion at the worst.
Ruz: 49:45 Yeah.
Rekka:49:45 Um, so I am looking forward between now and your launch day to read the other 60% of the book. Uh, the Ragged Blade, which again launches in the US on June 4th. And um, and I'm looking forward to writing a review to add to the pile of reviews that you can watch, uh, go up on launch day when you are totally not plugged into the internet at all. And um, everyone else can go check it out. It's um, at uh, ruzkin.com
Ruz: 50:15 Yup, R - U - Z
Rekka:50:15 is the website which would be newly launched, you say?
Ruz: 50:18 Yeah, R-U-Z-K-I-Ncom. And we're hopefully going to have a new version of that up in the coming days before the launch because my current website is a tragic mess, but you'll never see that mysterious listeners.
Rekka:50:33 You'll have the new one ready.
Ruz: 50:33 Yeah.
Rekka:50:34 So that will, that's good. That'll keep you busy between now and then. Just remember tiny steps
Ruz: 50:39 Yup.
Rekka:50:39 And, and so a good luck on the launch and of course, uh, from the future. It was wonderful and we're also impressed and everyone loves it. And um, obviously we can't ask Kaelyn if she has any other questions or comments because she was not allowed in this interview. She had to recuse herself as your editor from trying to lead the witness and in all those terms. Um, so yeah, good luck and congratulations
Ruz: 51:05 Thank you so much.
Rekka:51:05 and thank you so much for your time and I hope that you are able to enact your, uh writing plans so that we can see all the other stuff that you're going to bring into the world.
Ruz: 51:18 Appreciate it. Wish me luck and um, you have an awesome week as well, hope you enjoy the rest of the book.
Rekka:51:23 I will let you know if I don't.
Ruz: 51:25 Yep, I trust you. Be Honest.
Rekka:51:28 Exactly. Thank you so much Ruz for your time and um, I yeah, it's Saturday morning there, so enjoy the rest of your day
Ruz: 51:36 Yup, will do.
Rekka:51:36 And your holiday.
Ruz: 51:39 Thank you. Thank you.
Rekka:51:40 We will let people know how that launch is going to, I'm sure.
Ruz: 51:44 Fantastic.
Rekka:51:45 Thanks, Ruz. Bye.